Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
And again you go back to me "putting words in your mouth". That's the point of this whole discussion. What your brain tells you is coming out of your mouth is not what the listener is hearing. Your thoughts are not my thoughts and your experience is not my experience so what you think you are saying is not what my brain picks up and processes.

I have experience with this too since I was the person responsible for training new dispatchers for the job. I did not have the luxury of correcting people in the manner I would like to be corrected, but had to correct people in the manner that got through to them. Had I insisted on correcting them as I would wish to be corrected and they ignore my correction because it offends them, I would have done nothing and lives would have been put at risk. So again which is more important that you correct them "your way" or that your correct them in a manner that gets through to them even if it is mollycoddling. The point should be to make the correction stick, period.
Jan 7th 2008 10:38   

Beth Schmillen   
Well... I tried to read thru the whole debate/discussion that took place here! but it was too much
for me to read online...

I like the lettuce analogy... it isn't the lettuce's fault... which is said like it is a true statement.

accepting that.. then what is making the lettuce not flourish? the other variables... simple to
understanc...

4 to 1... when talking to people and you're not going to fire them... but you see them as a great
employee or you're their supervisor etc... mentioning a simple that's great how you do this, before
saying... this needs to done this way ... is a simple way to ease into ...

now i was raised in the don't do as i do do as i say... very simple.
Adults are Adults. kids are kids.

this works in some work places. Like I had to go through and measure and count a delivery
of these 20 foot rods for the machine shop each time they came in. My supervisor could look at
it and give it an ok... experience had spoken... that's the case of don't do as i do do as i say...

Hey old Coot.... Arthur... i think you like to argue for arguments sake... it isn't politically correct.
But the nicest owners and supervisors were the ones who knew how to train their workers, could
talk to them as if they were individuals and appreciated .... and you knew you were appreciated
and when you needed to have something explained that's what they did... Talk to you about it...

I like the thought of 4 to 1.... but it would be more words than
most have time for the way i see it!

Happy New Years....



Jan 8th 2008 01:01   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Cheryl,

The teacher teaches - that is his/her role in life.

The pupil learns - that is his/her role in the process of being taught.

Maybe our children are leaving school as thick as bricks because the teachers spend too much time trying to get an agreement among the pupils of how the pupils would want to be taught and whether they would accept being corrected in their errors.

It is not about hurting people's feelings.

It is not about letting people put their own interrpretations upon your words..

It is not about asking permission or the way to point out and correct an error.

It is about being honest with yourself and giving your pupils the very best that you can. If the pupils don't like it, they can go find themselves another, less able, teacher who will allow them to pretend to listen, pretend to learn, pretend to hold you in respect and pretend to be ready to take a test (while, inwardly, despising you for your weakness and lack of concern for their performance).

By setting store by all this psycobabble, you are denying your pupils (and co-workers) the opportunity to see that what you are teaching them is important to you. it is something about which you care and it is something that you do not want to see corrupted by stupid, cloth eared dolts who should not be let loose with a gum drop in case they dropped it in the middle of a road and got run over while picking it up.

What is more important - the lesson or the fact that you feel less guilty about correcting errors made by your pupils, because you did it nicely?

I would still like to hear from anybody else who found my reaction to your miss representation of what I said to be both blunt and ignorable.

Beauty. they say, is in the eye of the beholder - so is ugliness. What are you seeing that I am not?

The words that you miss represented did not come out of my mouth - they were written with my usual degree of care and honesty - but a little less confrontationally.

Oh - and YES I do argue for the sake of it .- because my opinions are important to me and I love to be able to modify them when I see a reasoned and sensible argument that indicates the need to do so. You see, I am passionate about everything for which I hold an opinion and that passion is what drives my respomnses - not some other world consideration of what some dork has promulgated by way of yet another method of dumbing down the population at large.

I treat children as children. I treat grown ups as grown ups. I treat arguments as another tool in my learning box.

Most of all, though, i treat everybody with the respect due their apparent age and level of achievement - I ask no more and no less of anybody else. If I am wrong - SAY SO!

If you want me to think you are not quite sure of the ground upon which you stand, prevaricate and humour me, Above all - be true to what you truly believe. From your last post, Cheryl, it is pretty obvious that we bioth feel the same way about how we would LIKE to correct people - the only difference is - I do it that way and probably complete the teaching process far quicker as a result.
Jan 8th 2008 05:02   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Well Arthur let me put it this way, with my years of training dispatchers to do the job, the one thing I learned PDQ was that my method of correction meant absolutely squat when placed on the scales of making sure the trainee could do the job right.

On the one hand is my stubborn opinion of what I think is effective. On the other hand is having the information get through a thick skull so that officers could be on the road knowing that the dispatcher was trained to do the job and place their welfare above all else.

My stubbornness means nothing. In the end it was of no importance. The only thing that was important was producing and effective efficient dispatcher. If that meant mollycoddling them so be it. It was much more important that the correction stick rather than I deliver it in my preferred manner.

Had I insisted on delivering it in my preferred manner and that trainee ignored the correction because they were offended and continued to do it their way after my back was turned, an officer could wind up dead. For no other reason than my pride and stubborn attitude. In the grand scheme of things which is more important, doing it your way or insuring that it gets done?
Jan 9th 2008 13:40   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Beth,

All l have to say is WHO STARTED THIS DEBATE..............it had to be the lettuce no doubt and these TWO just took over right now they are head to head in this wonderful debate that has most of us lost...........but very interesting the two are.....................WHY STOP NOW!!!!!! it's a new year keep it going................and l am pretty sure they will........have fun
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Jan 9th 2008 21:23   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
LOL(NOTE...The LOL is in MUCH BIGGER caps. than I can show in my comment here!)

I cannot believe you guys are still debating this....is it by any mean possible that you are both right? or both wrong?

What I mean to say is...there is no single rule that works with every being or in every circumstance....the world is much too crazy for the idea to even be possible! And dammit...what's wrong with Charley and George anyways that they can't figure anything out for themselves and deal with the TRUTH? Other than that they are UNIQUE and perhaps each require a different approach in correction or possibly even a number of different feasible approaches....In the long run people will do what they will do anyways.
Jan 9th 2008 22:23   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

It is the nature of things that we are both right and we are both wrong - what we are looking at is the degree!

I am busy teaching a guy about a simple process that he is totally incapable of understanding because of his own belief that he, himself, is stupid. I have cajoled, humoured, praised small achievemnets, yelled at, shouted at, screamed at and begged this guy to listen to what I have to tell him. I finally resorted to writing to him the reasons that he was failing - here is part of his reply -

"I have just read.Absolutely!I do not for one minute discredit your words.
On the other hand,I went to see my spiritual adviser,having so many troubles.What concerns you is:yes,success is at hamd,but it will not be easy.The negative forces in heaven are questioning my worth,and God has to put obstacles in my way"

This guy is 63 years old and far from stupid. I have shown him, over and over again that he is capable of doing the simple tasks demanded of him. He has spent many hours in my apartment working with and against me. He has even allowed others to sit in on his sessions so that they can better understand the differences in learning abilities between people.

He has never accused me of being brutal (which, I admit, I often am) and he has never complained about the constant noise coming from my direction and, now, even his spiritual adviser is blaming God - not me!

If my health was stronger, I'm sure that he would be here every day - as it is, he travels about 70 miles each way on a 50cc motor scooter (Recently in the most apalling weather). It is only this sheer determination to learn at any cost that has kept him on my students list.

Go figure!

While my wife was visiting, this guy had only two lessons. Since I was in this discussion, I decided to try the methods that Cheryl sets so much store by.

My reward?

He fell asleep! Both times!

As for this discussion, the most important thing is that we are able to spar and spark a discussion which is both valuable and worthless at the same time.

It's a grown up thing! LOL
Jan 10th 2008 08:09   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Spiritual Advisor? God is putting obstacles in his way??

More like Miss Cleo is putting those obstacles in his way to keep him coming back. The problem here is his belief in the spiritual advisor rather than himself. No matter what you do here you have counteract the things that he is hearing from her or him. Unfortunately you are up against a deep belief system he has developed for things told to him by her.

Without that influence, your student would be a different man!
Jan 10th 2008 08:35   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
You have it in one, Cheryl.

His spiritual advisor is an absolute nutter who abuses him verbally and physically at each session - to test his submission to the will of God!

I am looking for a Rabbi to try to counteract this poison.
Jan 10th 2008 12:04   

Jenny Stewart   
Hi Joseph,

Now I am a little confused - who has the Spiritual Advisor? - George or Charlie? LOL
Jan 10th 2008 16:06   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Jenny,

You and me both, this is turning out to be one very complicated debate but l will say this my girl she is one very determined woman and she will do all she can to "WIN THIS WONDERFULL DEBATE"......Arthur you a wonderfull man who is truly enjoying this debate but the odds will be posted, right now this woman is kicking your butt.......................but l think you have the ability to keep up with her......................:) .........good luck have fun .....
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Jan 10th 2008 18:53   

Wendy   
I can't add another thing to what has already been stated LOL

Course I am not going to back track for 8 pages either Time for bed here

Love analogy with the lettuce

Perhaps turnip would have been a better choice. Little tougher on the outside but tasty when prepared properly

Myself learned much better when I could do it hands on. Had nothing to do my inability to learn Just a different way to do it

Everyone has their thoughts, ideas and concepts how to get through to a person they are trying teach something.
The teacher must also keep in mind that not every student learns the same way What works on one may not work for another.
Trial and error for learning techiniques

Wendy
Jan 10th 2008 22:02   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Hi Arthur,

Grown-up thing? What the heck am I doing here?? LOL

Sounds like quite the guy....

I spend my days at work babysitting a 'grown-up' 30 yrs of age who either lead a Very Sheltered life, had a mental breakdown, or both!

I have never had the displeasure of working with someone so utterly unproductive in my life...One time we were loading a truck with some lifts that had loose 4 foot dunnage on top of them, when he started to take the 4 foot dunnage away I stopped him and told him we would need some four foot dunnage to finish the job. He proceeded to carry the four foot dunnage away(roughly 400 yrds) and bring back DIFFERENT four foot dunnage!

If i was to tell him exactley where a specific tool was that I needed where do you suppose would be the very LAST place he would look? Exactly where I told him to look in the first place!

One time I so tactfully brought to his attention, after he had disappeared and completely wasted over an hour doing something that was not even close to what I told him to do, that if he did not understand my directions he needed to COMMUNICATE with me and inform me instead of assuming what I wanted when clearly he did not know. His reaction was to stare off the other direction like a deer caught in the headlights and not say a single word! Later it got even worse when he did start communicating(and cursing!)...to himself and his imaginary friend. Were talking full blown conversations here!

Now, trying to give him directions...before I even get through the first one he starts walking off like he's going to go do it but heads the wrong direction. But given the blunt order to STOP AND LISTEN he immediatly stops and listens(still won't look my in the eye though. Wonder what would happen if I bluntly told him he's a CHICKENS**T TOO AFRAID TO COMMUNICATE WITH OR EVEN LOOK AT HIS BOSS BECAUSE OF SOME INSECERITY THAT ONLY HE, GOD OR HIS MOTHER COULD EXPLAIN! Or how would I do that tactfully?

If I bluntly give him a direct single step order...like pick up that board...now stack it there...now pick up the trimming...place it in the yellow bin....no problem!

Now he is a nice enough guy, shows up to work on time most days and despite his obvisous stupid actions he is not dumb. In reality he should not hold the job he does, I have other people to keep working as well as customers, business dealings and a boss to satisfy, I expect a thirty year old man to be competent enough to work on his own. Just goes to show you how desperate the labour situation is here that I am stuck dealing with this incompetence day in day out.

Regardless, suggestions? How do I deal with this fool?

P.S. Jenny, I think I am the one who needs the spirtual advisor! lol
Jan 10th 2008 23:56   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

You are here because you are here - it really is as simple as that. After all, if you were somewhere else, you would not be here, would you?

I think your guy has the edge on mine - at least he moves when he stops listening, mine just falls asleep!

""what's wrong with Charley and George anyways that they can't figure anything out for themselves and deal with the TRUTH"" - That, Garnet, is the whole crux of this discussion. I am of the opinion that it is for each of us to create his/her own salvation.

A wishy washy "Oops, that really is not quite what I had anticipated that my instructions would have induced you to do. It's a pity the cat didn't move fast enough and I am not too happy to see what you did to the boss's pet orang utang. It's a good job he won't get out of hospital soon, so he might not be so upset then.Never mind, why don't we start again and let me suggest an alternative way of doing the task that might be more acceptable to you."

Doesn't quite cary the strength or conviction of a shocked and automatic reaction to a mini disaster.

Not in my part of the world, any way.

In vino veritas. Maybe the real answer lies therein - we should all be drunk! Drunks can face the truth - unless they don't believe it, in which case they ignore it.

"can't figure anything out for themselves and deal with the TRUTH"
"deal with the TRUTH"

In this day of fragile feelings and men letting loose with their female side, let's face it - they can't handle the truth!

What a sad and pathetically inadequate race humanity is being turned into - all with the best possible intentions, of course..
Jan 11th 2008 08:35   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Garnet I think your problem is that you do not have a "grown up", you have a child in a grown up's body. Stopping and looking off somewhere else when you speak directly to you is not listening. You don't have his attention. whatever he is looking at has his attention. What ever you say is going in one ear and out the other.

Perhaps it's time to add some consequences to your correction. We had a person that constantly showed up late to work. Admonishments and reprimands, explanations of her selfishly encroaching on the time of her co-workers did nothing, however docking her pay did wonders. Sometimes it takes a loss to get the point across.
Jan 11th 2008 08:47   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Hmmm..I think the reason he doesn't look at me is because he is scared, of me and perhaps life in general. I give him an order and he is off to do it out of fear of not performing without stopping to face and communicate with me and truely performing. It is his fear of failure that keeps him from succeeding.

Perhaps docking his pay would work to some degree but I do not believe it would teach him to think on his feet, which is what is really required of his position. On the other hand constant grilling may achieve some results..for instance when he brutallized one of the main shop doors the other day(which halted production for 3 days waiting for parts plus another half a day to fix) he was bluntly told more than once why he could not be rough and attempt to force the doors open or shut! I assure you he will remember the tounge lashings he recieved every single time he opens one of them doors in the future!

My last lead hand before him was a different story, 17 years of age, cocky as heck and built like a brick s**thouse! Come from a 'troubled' background and Almost an over-communicater..lol, in the two years we employed him I watched grow from a 'no-nothing' punk into someone who knew his job very well and could handle more tasks and responsibilty than the average 40 year-old. Sadly he was blinded by the 'big money of the oil patch' and last I heard he was out of a job and dealing in some pretty nasty business.

Both of these workers are examples of faithful employees in the sense that they showed up to work and both have a desire to do their job well. The only area they really differ is in that the 'brick crapper' communicated and learned his job whereas the 'chicken' wouldn't cross the road. In the end they both turned out to be liars!

Arthur, maybe some men can't handle the truth just as some men refuse to reconize the truth...but then again we were all born with the ability to distingush right from wrong, just not the desire.
Jan 11th 2008 20:49   

Wendy   
Sounds to me like both of the people being spoken about have a learning disability.

Some students still don’t “get it,” no matter how much extra explanation or practice you provide. You and the student are getting frustrated. What can you do now?

What are Typical Types of Learning Disabilities?

1. Visual Signs
• a short attention span when reading
• headaches
• comprehension problems, or
• more than usual distractability.
Possible Causes
• visual acuity (corrected by glasses?) or
• difficulty processing what is seen, or specifically decoding words from the page.

2. Auditory Signs
• inattention to the spoken word, or
• inability to follow verbal explanations.
Possible Causes
• attention issues,
• auditory discrimination, or
• language-specific issues.
Strategies
• May have to rely on diagrams, videos, or other visual information.

3. General Attention Issues
These are the hardest to resolve, and may require working with a physician or a behavioral psychologist.

4. Memory Issues
• Some students have success with memorizing techniques, such as flash cards, mnemonics, memory drills, repeated writing, or association.
• Some students will have to learn their limits, and prioritize which information to commit to memory.

5. Output Issues Signs
Rarely, a student will take in and understand the knowledge and skills of the class, but be unable to write a clear explanation, especially as an essay.
Strategies
If by interview you are satisfied the student really is proficient in the subject matter, this is the time to develop appropriate “alternative” test/evaluation methods.

Not sure if even if this is the problem but you just never know. How to fix it is another issue altogether

Wendy

Jan 11th 2008 21:23   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
"WOW

You guys and ladies have taken this too the next level........very interesting concepts you all have shared some very strong points, concepts and not bad ideas. I am very proud of how this debate has the ability to carry it self..............most of us including myself have no real idea what you all are trying to say..........we lost track but l read most of the comments in the last few days and do have to share you "ALL" have put a great effort and thoughts into this debate............I think anyone who decides to read the comments would be totally impressed with you have shared in this group...............WHY STOP NOW.................have fun.....
Jan 13th 2008 22:58   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Joseph,

Choose a good topic, get two or more people with strong opinions and a desire to share, learn or indoctrinate and you have a great vehicle for the exchange of ideas.

I deplore the way that governments, aided by crapologists, psycoloonicologists and limp wristed, lisping nonentities have reduced inhabitants of the (so-called) western, civilised world to trembling apologies for human beings.

As an extreme example of the crazy results of our indoctrination into the fact that everybody is an oversensitve, quivering bundle of jellified, miss-firing synapses, try this one:-

A neighbour has had an accident and is not able to get out to do her shopping so the rest of us are taking turns to do it for her. Yesterday she asked me if I would go to Cártama market for her because there was a stall there that sold dark brown dolls with kinky hair - and her daughter would like one.

No problem, thought I. Just how bloody naïve can I be?

I found the stall - no trouble - and saw the selection of dolls available. Sure enough there were a few that were dark brown with kinky hair and two that were dark brown with long, straight hair. I bought the one that would be ideal for my neighbours daughter.

Imagine my shock when an English bitch (for want of a more aposite adjective) screamed at me for being a racist bastard who should be locked up. She caused such a ruckus that the local police patrol AND proteccion civil got involved. Fortunately the police here are just a little more, sod it, A LOT MORE enlightened than most other police forces and found this bitch to be well out of order and told her to go away. Since her Spanish was non existent, she simply became more vocally abusive andf had to be carted away.

Because of the atmosphere of fear created by such pig ignorant and blind interpretation of the race relations laws, white folk are so scared of having, even, the slightest hint of racial prejudice that they are prejudiced against all white people because they believe blacks are a special case who can not be insulted - intentionally or not.

This extreme behaviour is what is happening in all areas where 'prejudice' might be in evidence - to no matter how insignificant a degree.

Why do you suppose the police in most western countries concentrate all their energies upon the new criminal class - the motorist?

It is because most motorists will simply accept the fines meted out and, in the majority of cases, never come face to face with the officer who issues the penalty notice.

Any other suspect requires that there is sufficient paperwork to prove that the suspect's "civil rights" have, in no way, been denied. If a suspect ever comes to trial, there is an absolutely enormous army of apologists who will be happy to be paid to explain the fact that it wasn't the suspect's fault at all - it was the fault of Mickey Mouse who once terrified him at a very impressionable time of his life. (One such actually made a case that pivotted on why Tug Boat Willy was so called! Onan - look what you started!)

What does this have to do with praising four times for every criticism?

Well, think about it.

Being a 'stupidist' is just as bad as being a 'racist' nowadays.

Criticise stupid actions at your peril - the idiot who might have killed someone is really not responsible for his actions - YOU ARE for not wiping his little eyes as the tears welled up because you were not nice to him the last time he behaved like a moron.


Jan 14th 2008 04:29   

David Schupbach   
Arthur, You are killing me!!!
I know you were dead serious about what you wrote, so don't misunderstand me... I just absolutely LOVE the way you present all your subjects, and the way you infuse your articles with such reality it's almost as if I were there! The marks of a truly great writer!!
Jan 14th 2008 06:02