Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Arthur,

You have a way with words, l just had to read it twice and l think l will have to read it again...........l need to ask you one question how do you come with these comments......................perhaps it has something to do with the water you drink................but what ever it is................it sure makes it interesting reading...............one thing what is that number in case l needed it.....................enjoy your time off........
Dec 24th 2007 11:55   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
It's not the inept I'm defending here but basic courtesy and respect. Why is it wrong to use courtesy and respect since we all expect to be treated with basic courtesy. If Charley is that inept why would he be in a position to risk someone's life to begin with.

I expect to be treated with respect, if I am not going to give it I have no right to expect others to give it to me. Treating Charley as a moron, shows that you lack respect for him as a human being. It's not about sugar coating or babying anyone, it's treating others with respect which makes them more open to suggestions meant to improve them. Treating people like idiots serves no useful purpose except to cause rancor and resentment.

Then again maybe I have a different take on this from watching my very intelligent grandfather treated like an idiot by "blunt" people. Not because he was an idiot but because it made them feel superior to have someone else they could verbally abuse without facing any consequences.

You see these very people who treated him like dirt for whatever reason would never dream of speaking to another white person that way, white people were on the same level with them and got treated as equals. However a black person was not entitled to respect. And that's why I defend it because I have a bad taste in my mouth watching intelligent competent black people made to bow and scrape and take whatever was handed out to them in whatever manner it was handed out because they were considered inferior and stupid. There is no good reason on God's green Earth for one adult to treat another adult that way. None at all!
Dec 24th 2007 12:02   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Cheryl,

WELL SAID MY GIRL, VERY PROUD OF YOU AND YOUR COMMENTS BACK TO ARTHUR.......sorry l am yelling at this moment..............l feel what your feeling and totally understand what each and every word you choose means...............never though we could get such offffffffffffffff topic with a blog........like l said it has something to do with his water......
Dec 24th 2007 12:15   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
I actually enjoy sparring with Arthur, I have to defend my points and that makes me think.
Dec 24th 2007 12:34   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Cheryl,

"It's not the inept I'm defending here but basic courtesy and respect."

Now you have totally lost me.

What you are saying is that you will offer respect and courtesy to someone who does not have the necessary respect for you to perform tasks that might affect you to the best of his ability and then is not courteous enough to acknowledge his own short-comings.

Where, in your opinion, does courtesy start?

Where, in your opinion, does respect start?

Always with you?

Don't you think that you are due just a little in your own right?

Now, let's get back to the title:-

For every criticism you make of someone's job performance, make sure you give the person four compliments.

Criticism - Look George, it wasn't necessary to amputate the leg - next time why don't you think about simply removing the corn?

Praise 1 - Well George, a great piece of surgery - I'm sure Mrs Smith will soon learn to manage with one leg.

Praise 2 - Well George, a great piece of surgery - I'm sure Mrs Brown will soon learn to manage with one leg.

Praise 3 - Well George, a great piece of surgery - I'm sure Mr Henshaw will soon learn to manage with one leg.

Praise 4 - Well George, a great piece of surgery - I'm sure Mr Sommers will soon learn to manage with one leg.

Criticism - Look George, it wasn't necessary to amputate the leg - next time why don't you think about removing the corn?

(George) For crying out loud - can't you make up your mind? Either I'm doing great surgery or I'm a prat - which is it?

Dec 24th 2007 12:58   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Arthur I can't make it any clearer than I already have. What you want to call blunt I call offensive. I call it offensive because the same argument you are using now was used for generations as an excuse to make an entire race of people question their intelligence and worth. It has nothing to do with courtesy or respect. I'm old enough to have felt my share of it.

Yes it's highly offensive, but anyone here in the US can easily understand what I'm talking about it smacks of bigotry and superiority; not of helping someone improve themselves; but of proving how stupid they are.

Now I highly doubt that is your meaning. That is the meaning I get because of the experience I've lived through. That is why you take into the account the other person, you don't know what their experience is, What you see as a blunt attitude is not what that other person hears. That other person hears words and an attitude of condescension, condemnation and confrontation!
Dec 24th 2007 16:16   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Cheryl,

Let's see if your system works.........

Cheryl - it really is not a good idea to put words into the mouths of other people and then use them in a contra argument. Don't you think it would be much better if you actually made sure that they said what you think they said before pulling them up on it?

You see, the word I have used is HONEST - I have never said we should be blunt.

As a small and ill formed child, I think, growing up in a macho fishing port where men were violent and children were tough, I have probably suffered at the hands of bigots and bullies as much as, if not more than you have. I wear a beard to hide the scars on my chin from the acts of sadistic bullies who thought it funny to use me for batting practice - not because they are particularly unsightly but because shaving over them invariably leads to many minor cuts. I have chosen to learn from the attitudes others displayed towards me and learn of their weaknesses and insecurities in a world that they dare not appear weak in front of. I have always considered myself fortunate that I could survive the most demeaning acts against me or even severe beatings and come out feeling that I have learned one more thing about life. I could have hidden from my tormentors but there was one thing about them that I admired - they honestly believed in themselves and their superiority. I have never achieved that level of self belief but I'm getting there - and I am getting there because I encourage people to be honest with me. (Mind you, blunt would do.)

Honest criticism should never, ever be watered down by the fear that the recipient also needs paliative care to protect their sorry little id.
Dec 26th 2007 09:45   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
There is absolutely nothing to admire about a bully. People turn to bullying for two reasons
1. they are insecure and only by beating someone else down do they gain any self worth
2. They have been beat down themselves and look for someone weaker than them to take it out on.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that adults don't treat each other like mindless little children who must be corrected. They treat each other as adults and with the respect of an adult with an adult level of intelligence.

Just because you CAN do something does not mean it's the RIGHT thing to do, or as the old folks used to say "Think before you speak, words once spoken cannot be recalled"

So is it more important to say something in a manner that will anger someone just because it's your preference and you can, or to say something in a manner the person you are speaking to will accept. Which method is ultimately going to achieve the end you desire, angering them or relating to them in the manner THEY will accept?
Dec 26th 2007 13:33   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Arthur, Cheryl

The two of you are amazing it's like a good debate and so far the both of you have some very interesting points and hats off to the both of you ..............no sense stopping now.....
Dec 26th 2007 13:45   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Oops.

I didn't say that i admired bullies - I said that there was one thing I admired about them - not the same thing at all.

As for not treating adults like mindless little children, isn't that exactly what you do when you condescend towards them?

Oh, Freddy, you did it wrong, let me just explain to you how you should have done that.

Poor Freddy is wanting to curl up and die.

Not only have you caught him in an error - you are now going torment him by explaining something that he knows perfectly well but failed to observe, this time, in the performance (and which his enormous embarassment will not allow him to tell you because he doesn't want to upset you).

There is no nice way to reprimand somebody. They are either at fault or not.

Come the revolution, psycologists should be the first against the wall - they have done more harm and created more mentally deficient human beings than any form of oppression ever did. At least where the oppression is overt, you can fight against it. When it is wrapped up in frills and pretty flounces you just have to be oppressed and let your resentment build up until a real person comes along with whom you can have a real relationship and who is prepared to go the whole 9 miles and call a spade a bloody shovel.
Dec 26th 2007 13:52   

Jenny Stewart   
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am pleased to announce that the present Score in this debate is (including apologies) on 1st January 2008 is recorded at:-

Cheryl 14 v Arthur (Old Coot) 14

The debater who conceeds to the other's point of view on more than 70 per cent of points made will be declared the winner. There is no closing date for the compètition that we are aware of.

The prize will be presented by Mr. Joseph Botelho, who has hosted this event.


Jan 1st 2008 13:20   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Is it condescending to give an adult credit for having enough intelligence to understand things on an adult level or to spell it out for them as you would a three year old? When you treat another adult as you would a child you are being highly condescending and that adult is going to be highly involved in ignoring you. In one ear and out the other which accomplishes nothing.

If you are bluntly and directly telling another adult something and they are actively ignoring you, you have just wasted your breath because they have not heard a word you said. The only thing that they have gotten from your speech is that YOU believe you have the right to treat them like a child. An adult is not going to respond the way you would want them to.

While you think you have corrected someone all you have done is to trigger a heartfelt if not clearly spoken retort instructing you to go off somewhere and attempt to do the physically impossible by attempting to reproduce with yourself.

They have learned absolutely nothing. It comes down the the old saying "You can tell someone to go to hell and make them look forward to the trip if it is phrased right."
Jan 1st 2008 14:26   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
"You can tell someone to go to hell and make them look forward to the trip if it is phrased right."

Very true, Cheryl, but it is also true that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Look at poor George, the surgeon. He was criticised politely and given an indication of what the correct proceedure should be. Unfortunately, the next four operations were allowed to go ahead with the same error because some nutter said you had to be nice to someone four times for every time you spoke harshly to them. Result - confusion.

I repeat - there is no nice way to tell someone they cocked up and assuaging your own feelings of guilt at being the person to tell them so by watering down the criticism (and, incidentally, minimising the perceived potential damage) might make you feel better, but does them no good at all.

I am a blunt person and I speak plainly. If someone makes a mistake I tell them in no uncertain terms that that is what they have done - I, often, then ask them if they know how to do what they were attempting. (I would expect the same courtesy from anybody who caught me in an error.)

This gives the culprit the opportunity to admit that their error was caused by insufficient knowledge or to accept that they did know how to do the job - but cocked up.

I would never insult anybody's inteligence by intimating that they simply did not know. Many people I have corrected actually knew more than I did and their errors were caused, not by stupidity but by an over familiarity with the task at hand leading to short cuts that might work 9 times out of 10 - it's the 10th time that gets them.
Jan 2nd 2008 11:49   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Yes they are going very strong at one another and so far it has been a very interesting subject...............The two of them have took on there own to win the Prize that l am going to present as per my dear friend from Spain..............the prize will be a week stay at her home ion spain.....with all expensive paid for by .....................we are not sure as of yet we will soon found out!!!!!!!
Jan 6th 2008 14:42   

Jenny Stewart   
Hi Joseph!

Well maybe you can declare it a tie - so they both have to come. I can always lock them in a room together to continue battle it out and go out for coffee! LOL

Now ... who do we know that is making a fortune? Maybe if you look at some of the guys who are advertising the opps where they have made a milion in the first month.....LOL

Happy New Year
Jan 6th 2008 15:46   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Hi Jenny,

Hey glad you agreed on this "LOCKED THEM IN A ROOM"........l like that hope they agree on this also............coffee sounds good...................you paying by the way................
Jan 6th 2008 16:10   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
The Road to hell is paved with good intentions which is why we must think and make sure that our own good intentions are presented correctly. Any correction given that makes someone else feel as if they are being treated as a child or idiot is another paving stone.

When you correct Old George in a manner that he accepts without making him feel idiotic he will take your words to heart and make the change. When you correct George in a manner that makes him feel as if he does not have intelligence (like you would a three year old) George is basically going to wish you off somewhere attempting to do the aforementioned impossible feat and continue on as he always has because you have insulted his intelligence.

Our own point of view has absolutely no bearing on the situation. We are not the one's with our feet to the flames, George is and the only thing of any importance is getting through to George. That must be done on the terms that George is willing to hear. And in the case of one adult to another it is not going to be by pointing to a lack of intelligence on George's part. When you correct him like a child, George is not going to hear you correct him, he's going to hear you call him an idiot.

So the next day when George performs his next operation and kills his patient because he has stubbornly clung to the wrong way; because you were determined to bluntly correct him without any thought as to how George was going to take that correction; rather than taking a few seconds to give the correction in a manner more acceptable to George, what have you accomplished?

When a few minutes of thought taken when you had the chance to put your correction in terms acceptable to George would have made him think about the words you were saying rather than what he perceived you to be saying could have saved a life.
Jan 6th 2008 16:13   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Cheryl,

You have already demonstrated, quite effectively, that your idea does not work.

Do you remember my post:-

“Let's see if your system works.........

Cheryl - it really is not a good idea to put words into the mouths of other people and then use them in a contra argument. Don't you think it would be much better if you actually made sure that they said what you think they said before pulling them up on it?

You see, the word I have used is HONEST - I have never said we should be blunt.”

First of all I gave due warning that this post was to be a test – a warning that should have rendered the results predictable.

Secondly, one of the things I dislike most of all in discussions is the misrepresentation of what I (or any body else) have said. Normally I would have given a very direct and honest response to your use of the word ‘blunt’ when applied to what I said. Instead, I gave a reasonable and polite rebuke together with a suggestion as to how you could prevent the same thing happening again.

What happened?

I had to make a subsequent post when you committed the same error – although, to be honest, I really felt very upset that you had, once again, changed what I did say to something that you thought I might have said.

“Oops.

I didn't say that I admired bullies - I said that there was one thing I admired about them - not the same thing at all.”

I’m quite sure that if I had used my usual form of censure, you would not have made the same mistake twice.

Jan 7th 2008 06:42   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
And again this is what you will run into with your correction. Your intent does not matter, it's what the other person gets from it that matters. You have given examples of how you would correct someone and to me they are blunt. That may not be your intent but it is what comes across.

And that is the whole thing in a nutshell. You don't know what someone else's experience is. You cannot assume that your point of view coincides with theirs and that they will take your perceived "honest" correction as honest correction. Instead they will see it as "blunt" or condescending.

Your "honesty" is not going to get through to them instead they dig in deeper on their own point of view and totally ignore you. What has your "honesty" gotten you. It's no less honest to couch your correction in terms acceptable to that person. What you are talking about is being blunt or if you prefer direct. It is not necessarily what you has but how you say it when dealing with others. What you think and your point of view means absolutely nothing to them.

Now if we are taking about a potentially life threatening situation, which is more important. That you jump in and directly but honestly correct a person who will more than likely take your direct approach as offensive and ignore you or take a few moments to consider how that person is going to take what you've said first then try to phrase it in a way that is acceptable to them so they will accept it.
Jan 7th 2008 08:01   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Cheryl - it really is not a good idea to put words into the mouths of other people and then use them in a contra argument. Don't you think it would be much better if you actually made sure that they said what you think they said before pulling them up on it?


I'm very sorry, Cheryl, but if you consider the statement above to be blunt, you are much too sensitive and delicate a soul for me to try to have a discussion with. I don't do leaning over backwards to fit some lunatic psycologist's ideas about harming others by the strength of your words.

I would be very interested to know what your border-line is between `pleasant' and 'blunt'. Just how serious an error do you have to see before you actually decide that someone needs to be properly corrected?

As this discussion progresses, I am learning more and more about the American way of prevarication and apologia than I am about why on earth you should say something nice to someone four times for every time you say something not nice (I daren't say 'nasty' because I don't think you could do that without being sued) - which is the reason the blog was started in the first place.

If we can't agree on a level that constitutes 'not nice', just how much pandering and sweet talking is required on each 'remedial' occasion.

If you go through life trying to avoid upsetting everybody, you will simply waste your life being an apology of a person and you will gain no respect from those that your condescension is denying a true measure and appreciation of their culpability.

One of my early occupations was the loading and trimming of aircraft (even the, then, latest C130). I can assure you that, with such a huge responsibility, I was very pleased if a superior bawled me out because I had made a mistake.

Such a bawling out did two things:-
1) It reinforced my belief that the job I was doing was vital to the safety of the aircraft and crew
2) It reinforced my belief that I held my position because of my perceived level of competence and not because someone thought I might be able to do the job.

It also did a third thing, it ensured that I never made that mistake again.

(Who knows, it may even have saved lives on one occasion when I used steel instead of aluminium tensioners.)

If the words that I started this post with are considered blunt by anybody else, I would love to know just how the hell anybody is supposed to stop somebody else miss representing them. I tried my version of nice. I tried my version of a nice suggection to prevent a repeat occurrence. Apparently my 'nice' was 'blunt' so my words were ignored and the error was repeated as though what I said was written in invisible ink.

I do not believe any body has the right to ignore the words of anybody else, no matter how they are presented, when those words relate to a personal affront.

Where does the implied permission for the total disregard of corrective criticism end? Come to that - where the hell does it come from?


Jan 7th 2008 10:04