Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Cheryl l think Arthur is pushing your buttoms and he is also having some good fun with you ..............but your a very determine woman so you will handle all that he will throw at you..............the old fashion way has a lot of good benefits.........that l do agree with............so in the end we all have something to learn here from one another..............
Dec 15th 2007 23:00   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Well I might argue about whether we have to worry or not...incompetence and arrogance runs rampent in society. Look at our World "leaders" and how they handle things, Truthfully and tactfully or do they just spoon feed garbage to the minorities in exchange for votes?

People will view things from every angle you can concieve of and then some, when someone views the action of another as derogatory and inflammatory, instead of letting it get blown out of proportion wouldn't they just use their tact to prevent it from doing so?

Tact may have it's place, but anyone who is unable to be blunt with me in their opinions is simply blowing smoke up my butt. When I ask an opinion of you I want to know your TRUE FEELINGS, and not some buttered up repy designed to save my ego from some sort of mis-concieved impending doom. Is it any wonder there is so much politically correct bs these days with all the tact being put in the place of Truth!


Dec 15th 2007 23:23   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
There is a very big difference in tact and PC BS. Tact has it basis in good manners and civil behavior. PC crap is the oppression of normal discourse in order to cater to a minority.

Let me put it this way when you where growing up there was certain things your parents insured you did so you would be a well mannered child. So as an adult you throw all of that out the window and decide that the way to go is harsh and abrasive. Tact does not mean blowing smoke up your butt as you put it Garnet but simply putting yourself in someone else's shoe's before you speak. There is no reason you can't be direct and tactful at the same time.

Tell me have we list all understanding of plain simple good manners? Since when does common courtesy and decency take a back seat to everything else? If that's what it takes to function in this world I feel sorry for all who are functioning. I was raised better than that. Courtesy and respect come first. If you cannot be courteous enough to respect the feelings of others, you have no right to expect others to to be courteous enough to respect your feelings and that is ALL this boils down to. The issues of courtesy and respect
Dec 15th 2007 23:47   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Cheryl,

This is obviously a subject as close to your heart as it is to mine.

To be perfectly blunt about it, there is not a kind AND effective way of telling someone that they cocked up! No matter how you phrase your criticism, you will offend someone - so - what do you do?

It is not in my nature to treat my fellow man as a weak and hyper-sensitive blossom. There seems to be no reason at all for someone to stress themselves out in order not to hurt the feelings of an idiot who might possibly have caused them physical harm and who might, possibly, take umbrage at the form of words you utilise. Not every area of the world is carpeted in egg shells.

It seems to me to be extremely condescending of you to assume that everybody is incapable of learning from a mistake that is simply and plainly pointed out and that they are so delicately balanced in the self esteem area that you need to bolster them all the time..

Let's put this stupid rule of 4 for 1 into perspective.

Teachers in the UK (my daughter is one) are banned from using red ink when marking the work of pupils. The poor sensitive souls cannot bear the stress of seeing it. Apart from that, they are not allowed to mark an incorrect answer with a cross - they can only indicate that it is less correct.

Competitive sports are banned in many schools because there has to be a winner and, (are you ready for this?), in some schools, chess games are scored as first place and second place (if chess is allowed at all). In others where there is still a school sports day, only three competitors are allowed in each comtest so that everybody get 1st, 2nd or 3rd place - nobody is said to have come last.

Children are leaving school thinking that it is not possible to lose, it is not possible to be on a losing team and that, whatever they produce by way of work is acceptable.

The latest import from America is that the children should not be told that their hand writing is too untidy as long as the teacher can get "AN IDEA OF THE GIST OF WHAT THE CHILD IS TRYING TO SAY". The argument being that children spend so much time concentrating on their hand writing that they cannot retain enough of the sentence they were going to write to complete it.

Where does this pursuit of ignorance and mediocrity end?
Dec 16th 2007 08:02   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Arthur children and adults are two very different situations. Treating another adult like a child is offensive. And that blunt direct manner although not intended to be offensive will be. When someone is offended even if you are are not meaning to offend ,that will close them off to what you are trying to tell them. They are not going to hear your "criticism", only your "condescending" manner and whatever you are trying to say is of absolutely no importance.

So you criticized them directly and bluntly, it went in one ear and straight out the other. What exactly was accomplished other than creating resentment against you? They didn't "hear" a word you said, What they really heard was the manner in which you delivered it and to them it was condescending and offensive. Now what? You've offended them so not only have they not taken the correction but you can mark off any chance of correcting them in the future because of the resentment they are now carrying.

Taking a couple of seconds beforehand to think about what you are going to say and to consider how you'd want someone to correct you takes no more effort that blasting them with both barrels, it simply requires you to think and treat that person with courtesy. That is good manners, something our parents taught us. If more adults used manners and courtesy in their dealings with other adults we'd have a lot less misunderstandings in the world.
Dec 16th 2007 08:30   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Hey Arthur & Cheryl,

I think you both have strong points and good solid views on this issue. Arthur you do remind me a lot of my dad he ways and view where to a certain degree how you have view this topic. He was very straight forward, he got right to the point when we did something that was incorrect l don't ever recalling him provide me any positive feed back it was more the direct point. What the hell is wrong with you kids, blah, blah, blah......l think you get or see the picture here. Even if he was wrong with his approach l can not ever recall him providing me with 4 or even one compliment it was his style and he is still the same way.

Times have changed so much as you said in the UK they don't use red ink when marked papers, never use the X sign to indicate an incorrect answer. The banned competitve sports becasue of the end results someone has to lose that in my opinion is a wrong message to the players and kids who participate in sports or any other of competitve game thay are playing.

Todays society has changed so drastically that l sometimes wonder what is the right or wrong approach to use in certain situtions. Do l get upset and yell or do l point out the mistake and provide him with some positive feed back to keep his or her self esteem at an acceptible level.. I know l use to diffeent approaches with my kids one l get upset with my son l use a more firm approach with my daughter l need to be careful with the words l use and how l present it to her. One is more emotional then the other one, if l yell at her she will start crying , if l yell at my son he looks at me and says something like.............what ever dad, take it easy your geting all up tight over nothing.

I honestly think the rule can honestly work with certian situation, it's not a proven logical solutions, what it is is a concept to use at times and it can be highly effective if presented in a manner that has it's points as well as rewards for that person to correct his or herself with out damaging thier self esteem. Is this going work all of the time l don't think so but it has a lite side approach to be effective without having to getting into a large scale debate that will most definitely turn into an argument where NO ONE WILL WIN.......

Sometimes it takes time for this approach to work on a person, if we apply the correct wors we chose to compliment that person and do it as often as you have to l do strongly believe that change will take place in that person and l am talking about positive results. Thaat child or perhaps adult will benefit all that you have shared with them and apply what you have taught them and become better and grow with these new founded thoughts of encouragement. Simple steps, will giude them to understand why they where corrected in the first place. They will grow to become young mature adults, with self confidence, self esteem and be prepared better for their next chellange in life.

Just like the lettuce with do all the right steps with the lettuce at an early start it will grow to become a healthy, wonderfull looking lettuce. All we did was took an approach of providing, water when it was need, sun when it need it and then fertilize it as need it.

Think about that above story compare it to everyday life and you will undertsand that l head of lettuce takes just as much attention to grow propely as a child or an adult dose just different approaches but with them approach neither one will ever grow to become in anything in life.


Dec 16th 2007 10:30   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
LOL...Cheryl, I think our definitions of tact and blunt differ a little. In any case I don't believe there is any one rule to any situation. Personally, if someone has a problem with me I don't care how they tell me...provided they understand they are not perfect themselves and are in fact no better than me or anyone else.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we go out and start blasting everyone whenever we have a disagreement. My concern is when we worry TOO MUCH about hurting the feelings of another the very issue we have does not get addressed. There is no reason for anyone to get hurt...just keep the lines of communication open and come to a comprimise(ideally)...or forget about them and move on(if all else fails).
Dec 16th 2007 13:06   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Hi Garnet,

I have to agree with your thinking also, we as people all have different way of how to handle certain situation some work and some don't and again some people can handle the negative feed back from better then others some get all emotional about it.........Me l reat more like you do.............Good points..........this topic is starting to become intersting some good points form all of us............I think we in the end can learn something from one another..............if we do that then we can become better at all we do and handle problems much more easily................it's all good ........man l hope the snow stops any solution to making that happen.....
Dec 16th 2007 13:38   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Joseph, We Definetly ALL have something to learn from each other. As for the snow...haven't any solutions for you there..LOL
Dec 17th 2007 07:17   

Jennifer Underwood   Promoter
There is nothing more evident in showing one's ignorance when you talk the talk..but don't walk the walk.
Full blown criticism is not going to help anyone. Constructive criticism is something totally different..and is the way to help, educate, and inspire someone to make changes.
Criticism~ in general terms means democratic judgment over the suitability of a subject for the intended purposes, as opposed to the authoritarian command, which is meant as an absolute realization of the authority's will, thus not open for debate.

Criticism is the activity of judgement or informed interpretation and, in many cases, can be synonymous with "analysis." In literary and academic contexts, the term most frequently refers to literary criticism, art criticism, or other such fields, and to scholars' attempts to understand the aesthetic object in depth. In these contexts the term "critic," used without qualification, most frequently refers to a scholar of literature or another art form. In other contexts, the term describes hostility or disagreement with the object of criticism. Sometimes context, and the contentiousness of the subject, are the only differentiating factors between these two approaches. In politics, for instance (as in the phrase "criticism of U.S. foreign policy"), criticism almost exclusively refers to disagreement—while in an academic, artistic, or literary context (as in "criticism of Romantic poetry") it usually refers to the activity of subtle interpretation or analysis.

Criticism can also be a tool of antisocial behavior, such as a passive-aggressive attack.
Constructive Criticism~ is a form of communication in which a person tries to correct the behavior of another in a non-authoritarian way, and is generally a diplomatic approach about what another person is socially doing incorrectly. It is 'constructive' as opposed to a command or an insult and is meant as a peaceful and benevolent approach. Participatory learning in pedagogy is based on these principles of constructive criticism.

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others with the intention of helping the reader or the artist, rather than creating an oppositional attitude. An art critic can also be a champion of a new artistic movement in the face of a hostile public (e.g., John Ruskin), using scholarship and insight to show the value and depth of a new style. Critics might even champion a wholly new art medium: for instance, the century-long critical struggle to have photography recognized as a valid art form.

There can be tension between constructive and useful criticism; for instance, a critic might usefully help an individual artist to recognize what is poor or slapdash in their body of work—but the critic may have to appear harsh and judgmental in order to state this. I see this way too often, and does nothing but discourage. So what is the point?


Everyone is human and has feelings. And I don't care who you are, no one likes to be attacked..unless they are in for it for very good legitimate reasons!


Dec 17th 2007 07:39   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
It seems to me the world has gone to hell in a bucket.

Is everybody so delicate and so lacking in self esteem that they simply fold up and bawl their eyes out because someone with more knowledge or more sense than they have tells them that they have done something wrong?

This new world seems a very strange place to me.

If I am responsible for a particular piece of performance (whatever it is) and I don't do it right, I expect to be told. I expect to be told in no uncertain terms so that the degree of my failure is clear to me. By being given clear details of my failure, I can either realise what I did wrong or learn how to do it better next time. In either case I am being blessed with the opportunity to improve myself by my own efforts.

For someone to be so condescending to me as to suggest that I cannot work out my own salvation indicates a supreme level of vanity in the critic and an abysmal opinion of my own capabilities. In all the examples given, the "try doing it this way" ones can be more humiliating than "what a cock up!"

I don't want to be humoured.

I don't want to be treated like some incapable idiot.

I don't want to be denied the right to make a mistake and learn from it directly.

What gives any of us the right to say to anybody else who is reasonably able "I suggest you do it like this".

I will have far more respect for a critic who knows I did wrong and who understands that my error is already a personal burden without slighting my own powers of recovery or learning. As a grown up person I accept that people rely upon me and I give them the benefit of being able to do so while they reserve the right to tell me what a bloody fool I was to do something stupid or wrong.

I'm not somebody's pet that needs to be stroked and cajoled. I am not an emotional cripple. I do not go around waiting for others to put me straight.

I am a fallible human being who appreciates basic honesty and a straight forward attitude.

Once I asked why I feel like a Dodo, sometimes.

I think I just found out.
Dec 17th 2007 12:33   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Arthur,

You have your ways with words, l can not say l totally agree with what your saying and how you feel but l have respect for your feelings and emotions..........I guess we touched a subject that you honestly have feelings for just the way you have been writing all of your thoughts, you let loose you shared some good information with this group and lets us know how you felt about it................i thank you for sharing that information with us.............

Jenn,

You also have some very good points and information you shared, you sure know how to write when you get a on a topic. You presented some very good examples and ideas with your input that is so important...........l think we have covered a great deal of information on this subject...........l have appreciate all of your thoughs and comments.........what apsense is all about founding the right topic to get great feed back from great memebers...............I know Arthur even if the example was a head of lettuce.........it served the purpose......we all grow and we all can grow to be much better each and everyday of our lives...........one day at a time..all it takes and you know we can accomplish more then we think we can.....
Dec 18th 2007 08:39   

Jenny Stewart   
I still go back to the idea that you should cricize the action (mistake) and not the person "you are a bloody idiot"

Charley - if you tie the knot like that - it will slip and someone will have an bad accident" " is better than "Charley you ^^^^ing idiot, look what you've done - are you trying to kill someone!

If someone screams at me - I often just shut out the noise and dont even here what they say! But if they speak to me as if I am am adult human being - I will listen - whether I like it or not!
Dec 23rd 2007 13:56   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Jenny,

You have some very interesting points boils back to being treated with respect, all depends on how the approach is made and that will create how you will react to that response. again if your yelled at our natural instict is to yell back then end results is negative...........If your talked to in a manner you feel there is respect then you will react totally different.


Dec 23rd 2007 22:18   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Charley - if you tie the knot like that - it will slip and someone will have an bad accident"

Reaction . . . . . . . . . . . "Oh. OK."

is better than

"Charley you ^^^^ing idiot, look what you've done - are you trying to kill someone!"

Reaction . . . . . . . . . . . . ."Bloody hell! I didn't realise!"

The sugar coat will probably kill someone next time Charley ties a knot because the danger, inherent in his action has not been brought home to him.

Treat me like a pet dog and I will eat your food.

Treat me like a huskey and I will take you to collect it.
Dec 24th 2007 07:23   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
"Oh OK" is a much more constructive reaction than "Mind your own f***ing business and go do your own f***ing job" Which is a more than likely response to criticism number two. Because Charley is going to automatically become defensive and react in kind.

Is it really that hard to accept the fact that there is no need to be overagressive in handing out criticism. Being overagressive normally leads to the very behavior you are trying to correct.

So you call Charley an f***ing idiot and make him tie the rope the way you want it tied for safety, as soon as your back is turned he unties the rope and reties it his way. You think you corrected the problem by being blunt but all you did was waste your breath. By explaining to him why someone could get killed reasonably and with respect it makes him think about it. By being blunt to the point of calling him an idiot you have accomplished absolutely nothing, because Charley heard your tone and not your words.
Dec 24th 2007 09:17   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
WOW..................not really sure what this stands for................f****ing, but l have seen it a few times in the last two comments.

Arthur.......are you smiling at this moment..........l have never seen Cheryl spell like that before.....
but in the end it is all good fun...........please help me out with what that word means..

then again perhaps not l think l have an idea of what it means.........with my luck l will more then likely get ..................a reply with ..................f****ing ...ouch........
Dec 24th 2007 09:45   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Joseph after 12 years working in a police dept, let's just say I can make a sailor blush. That was just a polite way of putting it.
Dec 24th 2007 10:27   

Joseph Botelho   Investing One Gram at a Time
Cheryl,

I honestly believe that statement................your too funny.have a great christmas my friend......you make me smile also and l am not even a sailor.......:)
Dec 24th 2007 10:44   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Sorry, Cheryl.

I admire your desire to protect the offensively inept but I'm from the land of facing front and centre - I have no time for wee, cow'ring, timorous beasties who just might be let loose in a situation where serious damage can ensue.

I am a little puzzled, though, as to why you feel such a desire to defend the sensibilities of the incompetent - after all, it might be your life at the end of Charley's rope.

At least the way you have defended the stance you have adopted explains why my wife could not find any Christmas cards - just loads of Holiday cards. As a Christian she has been banned by some lame brain from celebrating Christmas.

That's right, Charley, we don't really think it is a good idea to call it Christmas any more - why don't we just call it a holiday?
Oh, and by the way, we don't want to seal the envelopes, do we? Someone might get a paper cut while opening one and sue you.
Which reminds me, Charley, we don't want to send big cards, do we? It would be awful if a postman, somewhere, was prevented from having a happy holiday because of a rupture, wouldn't it?
Oh, and just one more little point, I noticed that you haven't bought recycled or charity cards. We really don't like that aspect of you card buying, maybe you should think about those next year?
Oh, yes. I nearly forgot, I know how much you like your plum pudding to be soused with brandy and set on fire but we don't really want to risk the chance of burning down the house, do we? Why don't you forego that or do it outside where it is safer?
Enjoy your holiday, Charley, but don't forget chocolate can kill your dog, turkey bones can stick in its' throat, Christmas (sorry, holiday) decorations are highly flammable so you won't light any candles, will you?
Over eating can lead to obesity and early death from heart failure. Alcohol lowers your inhibitions and can also affect your pleasures.
If you feel a little down over the holiday, do remember that this is the high risk time of year for suicides so, just in case, why don't you put this number where you can find it?
Dec 24th 2007 11:37