Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

An entrepreneur is simply somebody who does something for profit,

Anybody who makes a profit through his/her own efforts can call themselves an entrepreneur - whatever the vehicle they are using.

You could sign up for a biz-opp and claim to be an entrepreneur but, looking around me and judging from the pathetic lack of any sort of entrepreneurial (profit making) skills demonstrated even here, at Apsense, you would probably be lying.
Mar 30th 2008 15:40   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Hi OC,

So from your view point, an 'entrepreneur' could be anything from a person who picks bottles out of a ditch and claims the deposit refund to a billionaire real estate mogul assuming they turn a profit?

Or does a profit nessacarily refer to money?

Now it's interesting you mention the presence in this community of what I like to refer to as a 'biz-opp pusher'. My view has been that people who join these programs seeking reward for simply being a member are the exact opposite of what an entrepreneur is, as they expect to simply tell a few people about this program, get rich(?) and be done with it. However, the person who created the program may very well be a shrewd entrepreneur(NOT TO BE MISTAKEN WITH A GOOD OR ETHICAL ONE!)

Or is there such thing as 'GOOD' and 'BAD' entrepreneurs?
Mar 30th 2008 20:22   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

Entrepreneur is a big word, which is why it has been adopted so assiduously throughout the business world.

Unfortunately it has a very simple meaning - as I said - someone who does something for profit.

Profit is that which you are left with that is additional to your current assets after performing any (successful) act designed to create a surplus. It isn't necessarily money but is, more often than not, expressed in 'money' values.

Technically, if a person was scouring the streets to find cigarette ends, as soon as he found one he would be 'in profit' and would qualify as an entrepreneur.

That brings the word down to size, doesn't it?
Mar 31st 2008 04:20   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Hi Arthur,

Interesting. Now the way your looking at it, would this make virtually everyone an entrepreneur?

For instance, if you or I were to feel we Gained some kind of insight from this discussion, would we be entrepreneurs?

What about the person collecting social security, are they to be considered an entrepreneur?

How about the thief who picks the wallet out of your pocket?


Mar 31st 2008 08:30   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

The thief is definitely an entrepreneur. He/she has done something to make a profit.

Insight is not profit since it is not a current asset and so, cannot be realised for cash or value.

Collecting social security is not being an entrepreneur simply because there is no effort involved apart from going to pick up the cheque to which you are already entitled. If, however, you were collecting social security fraudulently then you are definitely an entrepreneur.

I accept that many people would not like their entrepreneurship to be bundled together with that of a crook - but that is the simple and literal definition.
Mar 31st 2008 09:41   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Well Arthur, this is certainly getting more interesting as we go along!

I am sure you would agree to that if one was to take 'gained insight' and turn it into a product that they then sold for a profit they would not only qualify as an entrepreneur but as cunning one.

I see we both agree that there is in fact such thing as a(excuse the generalization here!) good(as in ethical) or bad(as in unethical) entrepreneur. Assuming this statement is true, what would the differences be between the two? What would some of the qualities be of each?
Mar 31st 2008 13:34   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

An entrepreneur is neither good nor bad. The definition does not allow for such a distinction.

Someone who used criminal methods to make a profit is no less an entrepreneur but his acts (though entrepreneurial) would be considered as bad.

Someone using gained insight and selling a product made from it is simply being an entrepreneur. Gained insight does not belong to anybody but the person acquiring it - what he/she does with it is another matter.

If you think about it, your whole life is spent 'gaining insight'. When a baby learns not to fall over it is not being 'cunning' in putting the 'gained insight of how not to fall over' to a practical purpose - it is simply learning that 'gained insight' can be quite valuable.

BTW where is everybody?
Mar 31st 2008 16:40   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
LOL! Well I'll have to try and re-phrase a bit(excuse the slangish western english over here!)

Here's my argument: Given what you have stated regarding entrepreneurs, a person who puts effort forth to gain anything which would be considered an additional asset to what they already own, would be considered an entrepreneur regardless of the methods they used to acquire it. Now as you have stated an entrepreneur cannot be considered good or bad I must assume the same for any individual and that only the actions of an individual can be considered good or bad.

So, what I am really driving at is the actions or methods used by the individual and the overall ethics applied(and here in the west this is what we would call either being a good or bad entrepreneur).

Now getting back to gained insight, any individual who leverages their insight and uses it to gain not only more insight but assets with only the most ethical of methods would be not only an entrepreneur but most likely a well-regarded and much respected individual. Whereas a thief would in most cases be loathed!

Good grief, wouldn't it be much easier to say someone is being a good or bad entrepreneur? If someone can be good, and can be an entrepreneur couldn't they therefore be a 'good entrepreneur?

BTW...Good question!(and one I asked myself in regards to one of your recent blogs concerning PEOPLE TAKING ACTION in this community of 'would be entrepreneurs!)
Mar 31st 2008 19:46   

Lisa Lomas   
After reading all this interesting discussion I had to go back and look at the dictionary.

1. a person who organizes and manages any enterprise, esp. a business, usually with considerable initiative and risk.
2. an employer of productive labor; contractor.

I tend to think the definition of the first the most applicable here, As I have seen Entreprenuers are not the ones that join 100's of business and spread themselves thin, I have always seen them as the more studious and smarter of the Business owners.

I agree it takes initative to be a real entreprenuer, its not a program hopper at all in my belief or the make believe ones, they miss the point it is real life even though on cyber space, it can bite you just as bad as offline business.
Mar 31st 2008 23:01   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Lisa,

Thanks for a new voice in the debate.

I'm afraid that the definitions that you have found in your dictionary are late additions and are more to do with the current self-esteem of those considering themselves entrepreneuurs rather than a true definition. There is considerable risk (statistically) in just getting out of bed in the morning but getting out of bed does not make you an entrepreneur.

Someone undertaking a risk who does not make a profit is not an entrepreneur - he is a fool - but not by this definition.

Your first definition does not preclude criminal or immoral enterprises so it is really only trying to employ a smoke screen to disguise vague circumlocution. The second definition is so pathetically understated that it is no definition at all. If I employ chickens (productive labour) to lay eggs, I am not an entrepreneur. If I sell the eggs and more than recoup the TOTAL production costs - then I am an entrepreneur.

Your final paragraph shows that I have failed in my attempt to qualify exactly what an entrepreneur is.

An entrepreneur is anybody, doing anything to increase the level of their current assets (be that cash or disposable/realisable`property). It really is that simple.

Hi, Garnet,

I liked your statement "the most ethical of methods would be not only an entrepreneur but most likely a well-regarded and much respected individual. Whereas a thief would in most cases be loathed!" and I so wish that it was true!

There are many gurus on the web who sell worthless programmes for huge profits (they are entrepreneurs) but a simple Google search of their names will produce condemnatory post after condemnatory post in blogs - and yet these people are not despised. They are selling a worthless product (making profit - being an entrepreneur) while stealing the money people are paying them - but they are not taken down from their pedestals. They are still looked up to. They have the brass neck to persevere and continue to (entrepreneurially) make more money - indeed, many of them are promoted by their peers, both the good and the bad.

The main problem with "entrepreneur" is that it sounds such a good thing to be. The word hints at mystery and hidden skills when it really is nothing more than a fancy label for a very mundane and ordinary type of person. A person who wants 'more'.

I can't really see anybody saying "Fred is a good entrepreneur" but they might say "Fred knows his onions" or "Fred knows how to drive a bargain".
As for anybody having the self control to say "Fred was a bad entrepreneur" - I can't see that either. What they are more likely to say is "Fred was an effin' thief".

Apr 1st 2008 04:06   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Hi Lisa,

I've been searching for a clear definition of the word 'entrepreneur' for quite some time, trouble is I haven't found one yet anywhere.


OC...you definitely got me when it comes to the reference of 'bad entrepreneurs'!

As far as these gurus and the "condemnatory post after condemnatory post in blogs", we are not referring to a simple thief anymore but a pack of them!
Apr 1st 2008 08:28   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

It gets no simpler than the true definition - An entrepreneur is someone who does something for profit.

"someone" - I suppose you could argue for days about the defining limits of this noun
"who" - and the same goes for this pronoun
does - a fairly easy verb to understand
something - another noun that invites argument as to definition
for - I doubt if this preposition can be misunderstood
profit - another noun where argumernts about definition can be long and inconclusive - but when it comes to entrepreneurs, the definition is governed by the word so must relate to an increase in current assets.

As I said before, people who consider themselves to be entrepreneurs are almost desperate for the word to have some deep and significant meaning that will boost their own ego.

Tough!

Do something. Make a profit. You are an entrepreneur.
Apr 1st 2008 11:04   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Hi OC,

Which is fine, I actually like and find the definition you have presented as simple and practical, except where did you find the definition? As I said, I had not been able to find a clear or satisfactory one anywhere, the dictionary's being especially unclear!
Apr 1st 2008 13:24   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

Try the Concise Oxford Dictionary.

My copy is quite old and well used but it still works - even if it does not have the latest wierd additions that only young people understand and use.

I was offered the full eight volume edition but there was no plot and it told you who dunnit!
Apr 1st 2008 15:23   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Thanks...and, isn't that amazing? After all them years that something can actually still work? Ah..they sure don't build them like they used too!
Apr 1st 2008 16:08   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Unto the next point...

Entrepreneur...Yes, it does kind of sound like something special indeed, almost like supernatural or SUPERHERO!

I can in fact remember back in high school when the subject of entrepreneurs was first brought to my attention, it was taught to us indeed an entrepreneur was something else alright, a real force to be reckoned with!

The fact was(and I remind you we were but mere pupils being led to believe something that even our government has put into a very special place and even provided loads of informative resources and support available to anyone at the mere click of a mouse), entrepreneurs could do anything they put their minds to and were the fuel, no, the LIFEBLOOD of advancement and modern society. Armed with nothing more than a vision and their minds they could accomplish anything they desired, as they knew everything they could ever need, want or conceive of was theirs, if only they made the choice to take it!

If this in any way seems like an exageration to you, think again as these are the facts that were and continue to be delivered to us, in that ninth grade school room.

So now all I would have to ask, is aside from the fact a 'supernatural' sounding word with a simple definition was and still is severely exploited, is there anything wrong with the words and statements used to exemplify this word?

And regardless, what are the chances of the word entrepreneur ever being put back in it's proper place?
Apr 1st 2008 21:53   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Garnet,

Like all words that have had their meanings corrupted, entrepreneur will, for a while, mean whetever the person using it wants it to mean.

"Armed with nothing more than a vision and their minds they could accomplish anything they desired," Boy! Doesn't that sound just like the nonsense preached in the worship of 'The Secret'? Sit on your butt, manifest away and a benificent universe will shower you with all that you want for yourself. (Selfish buggers, ain't they!)

For example, and the best if not the most savoury way of explaining this from my point of view is that I would love to go back to the days when a visit to the loo was a pleasure. When I could sit and read a newspaper away from the kids while I got on with my business. This was denied to me over forty years ago and I still miss it!

Apart from that, look just how loosely worded that definition is. It doesn't actually mean anything, does it? What if they simply desired to become irresistable to every woman they ever met? Would that define tham as an entrepreneur? I don't think so unless their aim was to be a gigolo.

And what if what they desired was not profitable?

An entrepreneur, by definition MUST do something and make a profit.
Apr 2nd 2008 03:26   

Not Here  just want my account deleted
Well Arthur, it's been great discussing this one with you, I'd also like to thank Lisa for stopping by and if anyone has any questions or remarks to add please do so.

I am off to do something and make a profit!
Apr 3rd 2008 13:41   

Collette Johnson   Collette's Naturals
hI Garnet
I believe that i MYSELF am "one of them there critters". I not only have an online business which isdoing quite well, I have a couple others that are stillb uilding and I even opened my own Health store, Hillynuts Health Hut here in Ohio. Plus that I still maintain my contacts with my networking buddies and keep my website(s) updated!

Onward and Upwards as they say!
Apr 7th 2008 15:24   

Lisa Lomas   
I see the answers and I do agree, I get sick of those that claim being an entreprenuer but as old coot put it
do not qualify just because they "hop out of bed". Actually that was a really nice way to me of saying it. (I have other words).

Yes they have to make money those that fake it before they make it are the ones to look out for, if they are faking that, how much else are they faking>>>>???

I really think these Bad Entreprenuers are a league of there own, and they can have it, dont they get it they are seen through, but unfortunately new ones coming along do get hooked then go through a bad experience that sucks the life out of them. That is great we see through it.
Apr 7th 2008 16:53