Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Oh now this one is going to take some time to respond to. A very touchy subject for me and my point of view tends to be unpopular with the domestic abuse workers since I firmly place part of the blame on the victim. Once I figure out how to put it I will be back.
Jan 11th 2008 09:15   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Okay now let's get into this. For one thing there has been a shift in a woman's role over the years. For centuries the man provided and the woman stayed home and did her best June Cleaver impression. Women for the most part were dependent on a man for her survival and the survival of her children and as a result women here more obedient to men.

Things have changed to the point where women don't need men for their survival. This female empowerment has led to quite a bit of insecurity on the part of the male who looks at his mother and sees and obedient little woman but his woman is not. This resulted in a lot of friction in the family. Friction which the children saw growing up. When the children reached adulthood what the little boys saw was daddy trying to control mommy and they continue the pattern.

Domestic abuse is all about control and insecurity. Then you add in the mix a woman who is opinionated in her own right and you have more friction the more independent the woman is, the more it feeds the insecurities of the man. You end up with an environment of abuse. Both male and female offspring are being raised in households where this is the norm. So the family unit itself is dysfunctional.

You also have a society which encourages woman to be independent and yet beneath the surface there is still this current of a woman needs a man to be complete, A woman that does not marry and reproduce is considered a failure. Remember the whole "Superwoman" phase back in the 70's and 80's? So a woman is conditioned to try to do it all.

Now here is where I put part of the blame on the victim. There are too many avenues to get out. In the 40's and 50's these escape routes were not readily available as they are now. And I'm not just blowing smoke here. I left an abusive husband 5 months pregnant. The abuse I endured was emotional and there were threats of violence. I thought long and hard before walking out that door. I weighed my options and in the end I was strong enough to say screw it. I'm not a punching bag or emotional dump for him to abuse, and I was not going to have my child born into that. I thought enough of myself to walk pregnant with $50 to my name.

I think that any woman who has strong self esteem and a knowledge of her worth will leave.

I've also seen this situation from the law enforcement side. And the biggest excuse we always heard was I love him. We have awakened judges at 3am to get them to sign an emergency injunction and the victim has let the abuser back into the home before the ink is dry. These victims have equated abuse with love. As long as the abuser is abusing the victim relishes the attention and that comes from being raised in abusive environment. What is the answer? Other than forcible separation of the parties or removing the children from the environment I don't know. And truly neither one of those solutions will solve anything.

The victims must wake up and get themselves out of it, not just for their own safety but for the future welfare of their children. It is much better for a child to grow up in a loving single parent home than in an abusive two parent home.
Jan 11th 2008 09:46   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
One more thing, Domestic abuse victims are not always women. Men become victims too not just of "henpecking" but of physical abuse too. There is a case of a woman who stabbed her boyfriend with a steak knife on numerous occasions. Each time it happened we warned him that she would kill him one day. His response "I love her"

The couple moved out of our city to an adjacent jurisdiction and sure enough on night she got it right. The man is dead an the female is serving a 20 year jail term. There's not enough love in the world to justify that.
Jan 11th 2008 09:56   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
That's a great insight and, I would think, a fair summation of some of the reasons.

I'm not sure that Spain has much experience of wives having to work but I'm sure that in what is a very macho society, men will certainly be feeling a little out of contact with reality.

Although I used the word 'loyalty' rather than 'love', much blame must be placed on the victim in a high proportion of the cases. As you say, the women seem to be more afraid of being alone than they are of being abused.

The number of men in abusive relationships is also something to be concerned about because these are the unknown victims. I can't imagine any Spaniard letting anybody know that his wife knocks him around.

I meet many same sex couples and, while the incidence of abuse is much smaller, it does tend to be hidden and the couple, generally, do not resort to weapons - and that is the aspect I find most confusing.

What can possibly drive a man to stab his lover through the heart?
What drives him to even think about getting a weapon?

Or is that another measure of his insecurity?
Jan 11th 2008 11:11   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
I'm not sure if it is a case of him just getting "fed up". Rather than admit he cannot control her, he exercises the ultimate control, life and death. Most abusers never get to the point of recognizing and addressing their insecurities. They blame outside sources. "She made me do it" "I had a bad day at work" Etc. The truth is that the abuser himself has issues. Couple this with a victim that has low self worth and insecurities on her part and you have the makings of a disaster.

You would think that seeing these things happen with other couples would give them a dose of reality. However since it is never "about them" they don't confront it.
Jan 11th 2008 11:24   

Jenny Stewart   
"Domestic abuse is all about control and insecurity." Cheryl - if this was true, with proper pyschological treatment, then abusers could be "cured".

I have read both yours and Arthurs comments and it has made me see red.

I beg to differ, and I speak as an ex abused woman - both physically and more importantly for me psycologically. I am also intelligent and well educated and have a reasonably stong character. And I say to you - So What?

Whatever the underlying insecurities that put pressures on modern relations, with more opportunities for economic independence for women, the underlying factor that I have observed is A COMPLETE AND TOTAL LACK OF RESPECT FOR WOMEN. And I speak for my own experiences and that of many other women in the same boat. And you may have been able to get Cheryl, but try doing it in a rural area with high unemployment, a closed community and two tiny kids, when you moral is at floor level.

And then some bright spark comes along as says "I blame the victim". THAT is one of the hardest things to hear when you are trying to get strong and rebuild your life - and one of the most discouraging. You think "hell -. it's bad enough my ex blaming me, now everyone else is doing it"· The friends who help you build yourself up again don't even think that - never mind say it.

Most abusers cannot be "treated" and continue to abuse in the next relationship and the next.

I dont know if you followed Lisa's blog on emotional abuse - but it was very clear there from all writing, that just "shaping up and having some guts" is not the problem when women try to get out of an abusive relationship. It goes far deeper and the victims are usually very emotionally damaged at the time they need most strength.

And dont forget, some of these guys are real Dr Jekyl and Mr. Hydes Some of then have no consciences at all about theit actions - deep down. They make excuses, they go into denial, but as there is no basic respect - even a limited "reform" is not going to be effective - some of these guys are psychos

Arthur you comment that physical violence and abuse is less common in same sex relationships - now why could that be - my explanation would be that there is no social imbalance between the male role and the female role - and therefore there is more respect for the partners gender.

And you ask why some guy's hate their wives Arthur? Society still obliges us to pair up - but that doesnt mean that because they marry, all men LIKE women.
Jan 11th 2008 13:52   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
I was also abused, I left 5 months pregnant with $50 to my name so as a formerly abused woman I say yes some of the blame does get placed on the victim.

I also worked for a police department so I have that perspective too. When we get the abuser out of the home legally and the victim brings them back in before the ink is even dry on the injunction? Yes part of the blame goes to the victim. The victim has to eventually stop seeing themselves as victim and take responsibility for their own lives or they will become a statistic.

Yes that is a harsh point of view and yes it is unpopular with victims. As long as a victim can say I am a victim they do not have to take responsibility. I guess it would have been more palatable if I said "enabler". As soon as you get out of the victim mentality you are free, but the only way to do that is to face your own acceptance of the situation and the fact that you are remaining in the situation and enabling the abuser to abuse you.

As far as Doctor Jekyll and Mr Hyde yes an abuser can be charming and apologetic, but if he has been removed from the home you have to open the door and let him back in. If he was removed from the home legally it is because the victim was in physical danger, someone has already given you an out and you decided not to take it. All too often the victim falls back on the many excuses available. Take away the excuses and yes the victim shares part of the blame her part in it too.

Perhaps if more formerly abused women would stop helping other women find and use excuses, more women would be getting out of the situation.

Jan 11th 2008 14:15   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
Hi, Jenny,

You, of all people should know that when I say something I base it upon wide experience and intimate observation of the public at large. I cannot possibly make a definitive statement about such a subject as this which is why I said:-

"Although I used the word 'loyalty' rather than 'love', much blame must be placed on the victim in a high proportion of the cases."

I am not saying all victims are to blame - but I am saying that a high proportion of them share the blame. The Coín victim, for example, apparently tolerated four years of loud and aggressive behaviour from her partner and, even with a small child in the house, she did nothing. There is little information about why she moved in with the guy and then stayed - despite his abusive and objectionable behaviour.

Neighbours who had heard the rows were concerned but, also, did nothing.

I have grave concerns about the way in which a woman can submit herself and her child to an abusive relationship - indeed, tolerate it for the four years that it lasted before she was stabbed to death while her daughter was in the house. What has that child seen and suffered in that four years?

Being of what is called the old school, I have a very high regard and sense of duty towards women and I am genuinely puzzled as to how these killings go on and how women put up with it. In Spain, as you are aware, there is one aspect of this type of abuse that is most deplorable - the fact that, often, the abused woman is refused help by her family. Her complaints are often treated as minor, at best, and laughed away.

I accept that your reaction was based upon your own experience.

But, so was Cheryl's.

This is a painful subject for many people but don't let general conclusions take on a demoniacal character. In any group of people there are the extremes, the averages and the general, perceived population.

Incidentally, I don't think that same sex partneships are, basically, any different from dual sex partnerships. The major difference, I think, is that the home-maker has nothing to prove and is able to stay at home and be the carer and support the bread winner. A lack of children makes this easier, obviously, but there isn't the same pressure to go out, get a job and share the burden. Like all couples, they have their differences and arguments - they just don't seem to be so violent.
Jan 11th 2008 16:55   

Jenny Stewart   
Wow - one thing stood out out of both your posts.

"Neighbours who had heard the rows were concerned but, also, did nothing"

Who is talking about excuses - we do get out - but it is not easy when you are completely annuled as a person and feeling totally without support and wondering if half of the abuse is your fault - especially when it comes from the you thought your were closest too and to whom you are most vulnerable. A

My experiences are not only based on my own experience - but that of, regretably many other women.

And do you know what makes it hardest to pick yourself up and dust yourself off and GO' It is not just the neighbours who ignore cries for help. It is often true of half the people you thought were friends and even some of your own family fall for Dr., Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and think you are just neurotic and offer no support or encouragement to solve the problems .

And yes Cheryl i do understand - i had 40€uros (about 55$) in the bank when my ex husband thankfully got up and left. Two small children, one in diapers and baby formulae and lived in a village with 60% unemployement or more for women at the time And I had language problems: If I had been in the city - or near my family, yes it might have been a lot easier to do something a lot sooner. But life is not always what it seems from the outside.

Both of you might like to read this

http://www.apsense.com/article/113848.html
This is not a subject for a great debate. it is very painful for very many people and when children and low incomes are involved it often complicates things tremendously . Attitudes like both of yours are frankly some of the most disheartening "advice" to hear for any woman trying to build up the courage to do what she needs to do and leave. A little more respect would not go amiss.
Jan 11th 2008 17:56   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
From my own experience and all my years with the police department dealing with this issue on a regular basis I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt the victim will not leave until the break out of the victim mentality. I have seen the most timid of women with absolutely nothing walk away. I have also seen women with all of the resources in the world stay.

Those that walk away have broken out of the victim mentality. The only way to break out of the victim mentality is to ask yourself one question "Why do I let myself be treated like this. " At that point a victim stops being a victim. Until the victim honestly gets to that point nothing anyone does will save them. With all of the evidence pointing to the inevitable end, no one will get up the courage to walk away until they accept responsibility for their own enabling of their abuser.

That's a hard thing to do but you ask a victim of abuse that very question and the answers you get are all coming from the point of view of a victim.

It's not his fault, he doesn't mean to hurt me.(it's accidental)
I should be a better wife.(her own lack)
He has a temper (implying she did something to set him off)
He's a good man when he's not drinking(he's the same man drunk or sober, he just has lower inhibitions when drinking)

As long as victims continue to see themselves as victims they will be victims. It's not easy to break the mentality no, but if a victim wants to survive that is what they must do. The first step is to let go of the excuses and take responsibility for your own part in it and yes every victim does have a part in it. Every time they make an excuse they are doing their part. Every time an agency removes this abuser from the home and the victim takes them back they are doing their part. But the worst excuse of all is when the victim uses their children which is just another excuse.

As long as we keep leaving excuses in place each one of US is enabling both victim and abuser.


Jan 11th 2008 18:26   

Jenny Stewart   
I am not going to get into a debate about this. It is not a debating subject as far as I am concerned, but I would be interested to know what you thought, - both of you - after reading Lisa's blog.

It says a lot about the support necessary and unfortunately, this is not always so easily available. A little support from those close to you has changed many women's lives and given them the courage to break free.

All these ideas might be fine in large and soophisticated places - they are not much help in old fashioned rural areas with very old fashioned macho values. And that is not an excuse. it is an observation
Jan 11th 2008 19:50   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Perhaps it would be better to realize that what Arthur has blogged on here is PHYSICAL abuse. There is a clear and immediate physical danger to the victim. This is not a time to give gentle support but to get the victim out.

I will grant that things are different in different places. Here in America support is readily available, resources are readily available. But all the support and resources in the world are not going to help until the victim is ready to help themselves. You say it is not a subject for debate, I say it is. This is a subject that needs to be addressed to stop the cycle of abuse that is occurring.

All of this support and resources has not stopped it. It has not even stemmed the tide, perhaps it's not resources and support that is needed here but good dose of shocking reality.
Jan 11th 2008 20:05   

Ben Ferm   Manager
No.

These things are not understandable. We have a lot of these "accidently killed" people here in Finland, nearly every weekend someone gets beaten to death, stabbed or shot. Or threwn down a bridge or simular. EVERY single time the doer is under heavy influence by alcohol or drugs.

To explain this by victimizing one part or the other (they are all victims here, don¨t forget that there are often childs that vitness the whole), is to brutally simplify a large problem. So it is to blaim society, as we tend to do here in Scandinavia.

Or the violence seen on TV.

One thing that has changed very much suring the last years is the fact that these things happen through a wider scale of ages now than before. It used to be men and women in their fifties who got drunk and stabbed eachother, now everyone between 16 and 90 do it.

I guess the ones older than that don't see good enough to hit...

Very concerning indeed.
Jan 12th 2008 03:56   

Jenny Stewart   
Hi Cheryl,

I can't comment on the areas where there is great support, because there are far more in the world - including the country I live in, and from what I understand, many rural areas even in the US where this support is not as readily available as it should be.

Talking only of Physical abuse - of course there is a problem that the victims dont always get out in time. But equally, I agree with Ben that Society and its attitudes has a great influence here. If you live in a society where domestic violence is abhorred - by EVERYONe - fantastic. If you try to get out - with all the complications of rock bottom self esteem, FEAR and the terror of "how will I cope alone with the children with no money" and no support from friends and family - possible but more dfifficult. When there is no support from society, possible but even more difficult.

These abusers do not lose their jobs afterwards - unless they have killed or go to prison. These abusers often do not always lose their friends, until they go too far, and even then not always. These abusers are not always rejected by their own mothers. These people, until they kill, are not even considered SCUM by a lot of people..

How many societies are there where women are expected to keep their place - including in the rural US? How many times has one heard - including from women(!) "she asked for it"? How many acceptable jokes are there about abusing one's wife?There are many. I have met older women who simply thought that physical abuse was part of marriage. I have seen too many women rejected by the system to agree with you that "help and support" is available"

This is a very serious problem. Here in spain the laws changed drastically after a woman was killed by her husband, who, though divorced, was forced to live in the same building as him - by the court! - She and her children had no other home to go to and this woman had recently appeared on TV to encourage other woman to divorce their abusive husbands. She was still killed afterwards. She had no problem with breaking off the realtionship. Just no possibility of a second home.

Since then i have seen the new laws enfored in the capital cities.I have seen it NOT enforced in rural areas. I hear from friends in other countries, including the US, that this is often the case where they live.

The law is often there, but its officials do not always enforce them. and society deos NOT always support these women in the way that it should - until it is too late. How many restraining orders to keep ex partners away from their previous homes and spouses are unenforced? Many all over the world. Laws and help technically available may change - but until society at large changes its way of thinking - the problem continues.because the changes in societies attitude are still very superficial.


Jan 12th 2008 09:02   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Jenny,
There is a reason that this is occurring. Many of these men are raised in homes where domestic violence is normal. Many girls are also raised in these homes. Until we break the cycle with the children it will continue.

Yes there are men out there that stalk their wives and kill them even after divorces. These are the Psychos and are at the extreme. One thing I have noticed with these injunctions and court orders is that there is no follow through. The court issues an order and that order must wind it's way through the system to get to the point that it is placed in the computer and readily available to all law enforcement agencies. Here in the US it does not matter where the injunction is issued it is enforceable by all agencies. But if the police do not know about it, they can't enforce it. How hard is it to take a copy to your local police department and get it on record to protect yourself?

And the whole excuse of "no support in rural areas of the U.S." does not fly. There are laws and resources in place everywhere, that does not help when the victim is uncooperative. There are even laws in place to take the choice out of the victims hands, the state presses charges against the abuser. But when that abuser is standing before a judge and the victim is busy protecting the abuser what do you think anyone can do about it? Nothing because the victim is going to take that abuser back into the home.

This is where the victim responsibility comes into it. The abusers actions are not the fault of the victim, but when police, the courts and battered women's agencies have stepped in and done everything possible to get this victim out of the situation and the victim chooses to step back into it....That is the victim's choice. They are out of the situation and then step right back in it. Tell me How many times do you expect other's step in to save a victim and get them out of the situation. only to have the victim put themselves back in it. Sooner or later someone is going to have to say enough and make that victim face the fact that they are participating in their own abuse.



Jan 12th 2008 09:38   

Arthur Webster   Just plain honesty
What a distressing subject this is.

The only time that I have ever been a 'victim' was when I was much younger, in my teens, in fact, and was the object of the derision of my much bigger and stronger peers. I was regularly beaten up and was familiar with the casualty department of the hospital.

I was the victim of comparative strangers and it would have been relatively easy to hide from them. I wasn't that sensible.

The sort of physical abuse we are seeing between people who profess to love each other, people who share a house, a bed and children, simply doesn't fit in with the norms of society nor the expectations.

I have had a major problem today and spent a few hours in hospital. While I was there I saw a couple of people who I thought had been in a car crash because there was blood everywhere. They were actually boy and girlfriend and had had a huge falling out. When I was wheeled away, they were on each other like paper on a wall. Difficult to understand.

Where does the violence come from?

That was my question.

I wasn't looking to apportion blame (though it is true to say that a target that isn't there will never get hit) - I simply wanted to get my old fashioned brain around something that is way outside my experience.

I know that there are men who will hit women. As Jenny says, it is almost expected in Spain, but who are these inadequates who cannot resist the urge to get a lethal weapon in their hands? Sometimes they already are holding it but, far too many times, they dash off and find it.

WHY?
Jan 12th 2008 11:35   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
Actually once you get beyond the man/woman is a necessity and begin to regard them for what they really are which is luxuries, at lot of the problems tend to correct themselves.
Jan 12th 2008 12:40   

Jenny Stewart   
"And the whole excuse of "no support in rural areas of the U.S." does not fly. There are laws and resources in place everywhere, that does not help when the victim is uncooperative. There are even laws in place to take the choice out of the victims hands, the state presses charges against the abuser. But when that abuser is standing before a judge and the victim is busy protecting the abuser what do you think anyone can do about it? Nothing because the victim is going to take that abuser back into the home."

Cheryl - this time I am sorry to say that you are well out of line.

Ana Orentes (whose death provoked a drastic change in legsilation here) died with the police informed etc etc. and complying with the court order - her husband set the house on fire and killed her. He did not comply with the court order. The police did not get there in time. She had done all the things that you recommend. She is not a rare case either.

The psychos and stalkers are not few and far between when it comes to domestic violence.

I can appreciate the frustration that the police must feel in the many cases of victims of domestic violence who return to the abusers. I do not believe however that blaming them is helping anyone at all, even though it might make the policeman or woman feel better. For every policeman in your, quite clearly very model state, there is another one who does not take domestic violence seriously., does not comply with court orders to watch over stalked women at risk, who do not respond to calls in time for the victim or who think the women are hysterical (a not unusual state to be in when threatened or suffering from physical abuse). Ironically, the most unsysmpathetic policeman I ever met was in fact a woman.

Just because a woman has low self esteem, is fearful and depressed and does not act in her own best interests, that does not give anyone the right to say that she is to blame for the gratuitous violence of her partner or to shift the reposibility onto her.

It is perfectly pòssible in some countries for the police to arrest and charge an abuser, WITHOUT the consent of the victim and for a Court to imprison them, WITHOUT the victims consent.

Arthur commented to me that laws will only work when society is ready for them. In the case of domestic violence this is very much the case. Your own state may have an elighted view of the way to deal with abusers. Most of the world does not. Arthurs comment about the neighbours of the woman recently murdered here says it all. Most people dont want to get involved. Which is bad news when you need moral support to make the right decision.

When domestic violence carries a social stigma to ALL its perpetrators, and victims need no longer feel ashamed - maybe we will get somewhere.
Jan 12th 2008 15:07   

Cheryl Baumgartner   Medical Billing/Coding/Insurance
think logically and objectively for a moment Jenny. If you are laying on a railroad track and pull you off of it because there is a train coming and you lay back down on it not once but numerous times, who is to blame,
Jan 12th 2008 18:10   

Jenny Stewart   
Itis totally unimportant to proportion "blame". The important issue is to solve the problem.

Blaming people is irrelevant. As i explained to my children when they were small, there will always be someone to blame . but - so what? The important thing is to find a way to solve the problem and put things right.
Jan 12th 2008 20:15