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Can you talk about religion? Again.....
by Arthur Webster Just plain honesty
Arthur Webster 
Just plain honesty
As I read forums inviting people to discuss religion, I am almost brought to tears of frustration by false and pretentious statements.
Talk about any subject but religion and you are likely to have a sane and productive intercourse. With religion, this seems to be impossible.
WHY NOT?
In no other discussions do I see extensive extracts from learned tomes in support of an assertion - indeed - it would seem that an opinion, on religion, is no opinion at all unless accompanied by specious and, often, extensive quotes from the Bible.
The Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, any other book you care to name - none of these is ever quoted.
Please, can anybody out there simply have a discussion about what religion is all about?
I don't want loads of quotations from men long dead who have been transliterated and interpreted for the purposes of an establishment that is no part of God's intent.
I don't want to see any justification based only upon the idea that it is best to say that you are a Christian - because that is 'the thing to do'.
My own thoughts are quite simple.
I believe the earliest religions came about when man first became aware that he must, one day, die. This primal fear is what drives many of us to seek a reason for our existence and then to create a belief in life after death.
I believe that there may well be a life after this one - indeed, I have experienced and seen enough to be almost certain of it.
I have also seen many false prophets. I have questioned some of them as to their huge desire for worldly wealth contrasted with their demonstrations of disdain for it.
It has been a great help to me to speak to priests who are honest enough to admit that they believe - but that they have doubts about the foundation upon which their belief is built.
It has always been my desire to understand why the Christian churches, for the most part, accumulate enormous wealth while continuing to hold out the begging bowl to those who can least afford to give.
It has always been my desire to know why Jesus' promise to be 'wheresoever two or more of you are gathered in my name' has been ignored in many Christian ministries so that enormously expensive edifices can be built to the glory of mankind. (I do not think for one second that they were ever built for the glory of God).
It has always been a puzzle to me that God commanded the Children of Israel to worship no craven images but this commandment is not obeyed. Walk into any church and see for yourself the congregation worshipping a statue.
Why did the gold plates that John Smith found so mysteriously, disappear?
Why were the tablets upon which God inscribed the ten commandments not kept? Surely, a letter from God should have some value? I know Moses threw the tablets to the ground but there is no report that the pieces evaporated or disappeared.
On the flight from Egypt, how did the Children of Israel lose, so quickly, the faith that they had maintained and sustained themselves with for centuries so that, to a man, they were brought to believe in the omnipotence of the golden calf?
I have questions.
I have no answers.
I have beliefs.
I do not always know why I believe what I do.
Surely, somewhere in this great community, there are others like me who can openly and honestly discuss the general topic of religion without over zealous (even if well meant) bigotry.
I want to learn.
I need to learn.
I am prepared to learn.
I am also, as always, prepared to fight my corner so those of you who are bound by the book that your creed dictates - show me that your faith is based upon more than blind obedience to the words of men, translated by men and transcribed by men - all of whom are long dead.
Convince me.
I will be eternally grateful.
Feb 8th 2008 04:05
Just plain honestyAs I read forums inviting people to discuss religion, I am almost brought to tears of frustration by false and pretentious statements.
Talk about any subject but religion and you are likely to have a sane and productive intercourse. With religion, this seems to be impossible.
WHY NOT?
In no other discussions do I see extensive extracts from learned tomes in support of an assertion - indeed - it would seem that an opinion, on religion, is no opinion at all unless accompanied by specious and, often, extensive quotes from the Bible.
The Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, any other book you care to name - none of these is ever quoted.
Please, can anybody out there simply have a discussion about what religion is all about?
I don't want loads of quotations from men long dead who have been transliterated and interpreted for the purposes of an establishment that is no part of God's intent.
I don't want to see any justification based only upon the idea that it is best to say that you are a Christian - because that is 'the thing to do'.
My own thoughts are quite simple.
I believe the earliest religions came about when man first became aware that he must, one day, die. This primal fear is what drives many of us to seek a reason for our existence and then to create a belief in life after death.
I believe that there may well be a life after this one - indeed, I have experienced and seen enough to be almost certain of it.
I have also seen many false prophets. I have questioned some of them as to their huge desire for worldly wealth contrasted with their demonstrations of disdain for it.
It has been a great help to me to speak to priests who are honest enough to admit that they believe - but that they have doubts about the foundation upon which their belief is built.
It has always been my desire to understand why the Christian churches, for the most part, accumulate enormous wealth while continuing to hold out the begging bowl to those who can least afford to give.
It has always been my desire to know why Jesus' promise to be 'wheresoever two or more of you are gathered in my name' has been ignored in many Christian ministries so that enormously expensive edifices can be built to the glory of mankind. (I do not think for one second that they were ever built for the glory of God).
It has always been a puzzle to me that God commanded the Children of Israel to worship no craven images but this commandment is not obeyed. Walk into any church and see for yourself the congregation worshipping a statue.
Why did the gold plates that John Smith found so mysteriously, disappear?
Why were the tablets upon which God inscribed the ten commandments not kept? Surely, a letter from God should have some value? I know Moses threw the tablets to the ground but there is no report that the pieces evaporated or disappeared.
On the flight from Egypt, how did the Children of Israel lose, so quickly, the faith that they had maintained and sustained themselves with for centuries so that, to a man, they were brought to believe in the omnipotence of the golden calf?
I have questions.
I have no answers.
I have beliefs.
I do not always know why I believe what I do.
Surely, somewhere in this great community, there are others like me who can openly and honestly discuss the general topic of religion without over zealous (even if well meant) bigotry.
I want to learn.
I need to learn.
I am prepared to learn.
I am also, as always, prepared to fight my corner so those of you who are bound by the book that your creed dictates - show me that your faith is based upon more than blind obedience to the words of men, translated by men and transcribed by men - all of whom are long dead.
Convince me.
I will be eternally grateful.
Feb 8th 2008 04:05
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Comments
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Cheryl Baumgartner
  Medical Billing/Coding/InsuranceI have my own system of faith that does not really mesh with the established "Church views" on religion. Rather than wait for someone to tell be what is in The Book" I read and reflected on it for myself. Too many People don't understand the concept of divinely inspired. The Bible, Torah, and Qaran are all divinely inspired, however each one of them was written by a man. Among the Christian church they take a small percentage of those divinely inspired writings and call it the Bible. The old testament is probably intact but the New Testament is composed of 27 Gospels. There were more than 400 Gospels written, yet a man went through those Gospels centuries ago and decided that over 300 of them did not fit the view of "the church". These are found in the "Apocrypha" Religion has nothing to do with God. Religion is an organized movement that has the aim of controlling the masses for whatever reason. There is a bunch of brainwashing going on Especially in these modern Megachurches. I understand one thing quite clearly, Your walk with God is your own. No one can walk it for you so each of us has to have our own direct connection. You don't need the Middleman to tell you what to think because you are not thinking. You are being lead around by a collar of blind obedience which even Christ did not support. I won't get into all the faults of the church just say this read and learn for yourself and understand that there is a God. Much of what we see going on today was preordained and is just coming to pass. Feb 8th 2008 07:51 |
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Mark Hultgren
Wordpress SpecialistMan oh Man is this a touchy topic! I am sure there may be some who come in and blast differing veiws on the subject, but here is mine. I have also spent many years searching for what I could believe is a "Spiritual Awakening". I studiied the teachings of quite a few religious scholars, teachers and so called authorities, and in the end have come to this conclusion. Not to say that I have arrived or finished my trek, just this is the point I am at in this point of my journey. Life is a journey, what you make of it is a result of your actions, thoughts, deeds and reactions. Sounds trite, I know, but I have found it to be true! I have made some choices in my early years that I regret and have learned from. I do believe in the Bible as it has more 'Life Guides' available within it than many of the others listed above. The Bible to me is just that - A Guide To Living a Prosperous Life. Now my definition of prosperity may be very different than yours. To me, it means having food to eat, family to share with and an inner peace that allows me to wake up every morning and be able to look myself in the eye and feel good about the things, choices and actions of the previous day. I do my best to "Love Others As You Would Have Them Love You" but that does not mean that I just walk around and hand out money to everyone I see. I try to bless people by providing things to help them. I don't give an alchoholic on the street cash, but I do buy them some food or give them a warm coat or blanket in the winter. This is what I would want someone to do for me if I was in a condition that I could not control an addiction (I am speaking form experience on this one - been there done that and it was through my "awakening" that I have been able to walk away from it without looking back). I see many proverbs and mantras and mottos throughout many books that all say the same thing, just using different words. Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and he listens to me when I need help or just to vent. And if I listen close enough, He answers me too! It has taken me thrity years to learn to listen to His voice though, and I have not perfected it by any means. But He is there when I need him! Feb 8th 2008 09:03 |
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Arthur Webster
Just plain honestyAh. I seem to have fallen foul of expecting what I write to be read as I intended it to be. The question was - "Can you talk about religion?" I was not looking for a discussion on religion here. I simply wanted to see whether or not there are people who are able to discuss the subject in an open minded manner - the idea being to invite those who say 'Yes' to join me. It is rather sad that the, so-called, Christian world is so brain washed into believing that religion and church are the same thing. They are as far apart as lead and gold. For me, religion is rather like the operating system on a computer. It allows programmes to run and creates and enforces parameters which can be broken. It should be possible to discuss religion in exactly the same way that we might discuss the weather or last night's TV. When I see mention of TV programmes, I do not see the associated TV time table and the synopsis of the programme quoted in support of any opinion - is that not possible with religion? Feb 8th 2008 15:36 |
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Cheryl Baumgartner
Medical Billing/Coding/InsuranceArthur, this is precisely why religion is a taboo subject. It is impossible to have an objective opinion about it. No matter what your faith it permeates every fiber of your being. Even with atheists the lack of belief is an ingrained part of them. Take myself, I don't believe in "religion" Religion tends to be an organized movement. And the church is the manipulation of that organized movement. I believe in personal spirituality, my relationship with god does not depend on religion or the church but my own personal experience and faith. In the end that is what it boils down to, our own faith and experience. No one can provide the answers for you. They may be able to point you in the right direction but you personally must find your own answer. Feb 8th 2008 20:51 |
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Mark Hultgren
Wordpress SpecialistWe can have discussions on Religion vs Spirituality quite easily. It just seems that so many people think they are one and the same. Like you and Cheryl have pointed out, they are not necessarily the same thing. Many people have become so browbeaten by the man made Dogma that permeates today's "religions" that they cannot see the difference. Being part Native American and learning Spiritual Ways from my native family, I can see there is a major chasm between the two. Feb 9th 2008 16:08 |
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Arthur Webster
Just plain honesty"It is impossible to have an objective opinion about it." I see what you are saying, Cheryl. How sad it is that we can discuss murder, sex crimes, punishment, our favourite holiday destination and so on - all of which we have formed a specific value and opinion for and of - but, I guess, the answer to my question is a very sad and resounding NO! What a pity so many people who claim a religious belief don't have the necessary open mindedness (required by most religions) to put it to the test. Religion - thy name is bigotry. Feb 10th 2008 03:51 |
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Not Here
 just want my account deletedHello Arthur, As much as I'd like too, I really Know nothing about God. Concerning organized religion based on my experience I have no use for it other than that it perhaps has kept the subject of God alive to many or at least it was how I was introduced to it. Can we talk about religion? I wish we could, or more specifically about God and the awesome wonders and possibilities of life! Feb 10th 2008 13:51 |
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Jean DAndrea
RetiredHi Arthur, Unfortunately, I've decided never to discuss religion in online forums, as words are so easily misconstrued, and it's not always easy to express what your want to say. So although I am happy to discuss religion in person, sorry, but I can't bring myself to join in this forum, although I'll be reading it with interest. Or is that hypocritical? :-) Jean Feb 11th 2008 18:24 |
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Arthur Webster
Just plain honestyWell, I have finally been given the reason why people cannot discuss religion. They are scared of dying! This was given to me by one of my clients who, just this morning (he phoned me at 3.30am to let me know) agreed that my consistent nagging, irrefutable logic and sensitivity (his words, not mine) had finally made him cave in. I took a taxi to see him at a more human hour and made all the necessary arrangements. It turns out that his fear of his private life becoming a mere shadow of itself had been over-taken by the fear of dying. We had discussed religion on several occasions but not in any great depth because he was not comfortable with it. He has asked me to see him again after surgery because he then wants to discuss my own ideas of religion and compare what I have said with what he is going to experience. His greatest fear, he has admitted (and most of us, I am sure, can empathise with this) is not the actual 'dying' - it is 'being dead'. He has not got his head around the idea that there is every possibility that after dying he will simply cease to be. His existence will end and all that he was will slowly be forgotten as his works fade and those who remember him also die. We are both looking forward to an open and frank discussion and, already, we have a group of seven individuals who want to join us. While we will be discussing religion, it seems to me that we will more likely end up discussing how to cope with the idea that the day will come when we won't be around. It is this primal fear that makes religion a tabboo subject. Feb 12th 2008 04:19 |
Well Arthur,
In the Guidelines for this group, I stated that Religion and Politics should be avoided.
I did not specifically prohibit them.
My reasoning was precisely as you have stated: "Talk about any subject but religion and you are likely to have a sane and productive intercourse. With religion, this seems to be impossible."
However, since you have stated the subject in such impeccable fashion, maybe we will give it a try here and see what happens.
Personally, I believe as you do, that religions started when man realized his existence was finite. And that is still true on an individual basis today. When it REALLY sinks in that we are going to die, or that we CAN die, our soul begins to search for something better.
As a child I was raised in a very conservative version of Christianity that builds no Church Temples, and whose ministers give up all worldly posessions in order to go forth into the world and preach Jesus Christ. Their only means of support was/is completely voluntary donations that no one EVER solicited.
So it CAN be done! "By their works ye shall know them..." However, growing up that way, and seeing it first hand really gave me no advantage whatsoever. Salvation has to be personal. Just being a member of a particular faith or church is not salvation.
Bhuddist Philosophy, or Dharma on the other hand tends to ignore all concepts of an afterlife, except for the Himalayan/Tibetan schools which make a huge thing out of reincarnation. Guatama Sidhartha himself, (Bhudda, or Awakened One) is reported to have said, "Don't make a religion out of this..."
The interesting thing is, when you go to comparing Dharma with the Bible, many of the concepts are much the same. For example: Karma is the principle that we create our consequences from our actions/intents. Sounds a lot like: "Cast thy bread upon the water and it shall return unto you after many days."
That is one example, there are many many more to one whose eyes and mind are open.
In my opinion, what it all boils down to is: Organized religion has very little to do with deciding your destination. Only your determination, and your willingness to open yourself to The Creator, (by whatever name you wish to address him) will bring inner life and peace.
I wish you much success on your journey my friend! D
Feb 8th 2008 06:29