Beth Schmillen   
written several days ago...

I took a few days off to rest my eyes from the strain
of the monitor only to return to be confronted by
many changes.

It seems it isn't enough to delete spammers' posts
from your group. Now, if you have enough honor points,
(10 honor poins is the magic number!)
you can report spammers.

What if you have [b]ZERO[/b] honor points and have a
spammer sending you messages and posting to your group
and being a total annoyance...how do you report this?

Funny, I'm not bothered by spammers. They've not spammed
my groups or over messaged me! Who is getting all this
spam?

I get messages from contacts/friends or unknown members who
have offers that are legitimate to send. I read them
I book mark some of them... I reply to most with a counter
offer! I call it Dueling Marketers! after the blue grass tune
dueling banjos... but... i try my best to take the edge off
and introduce the civil side of network marketing.

Hi & How are you works ... and then there's thanks for your
information... have you seen this? How's the family? Is that
really spain where that pic was taken? that sort of chat
whenever it occurs to you...

so...

I copied the following from the FAQ from Apsense

26) Do I have to own a business to become an
Apsense user?

No, you do not have to own a business to be an Apsense
user. In fact we have plans to expand to many other
industries other then the business industry in the near
future.

27) How is my spam rating calculated?

Every time a spam complaint is reported against you by a
user regarding the content of your subject, comment or
message your spam rating will decrease. Once your spam
rating is below 60% you will no longer be able to post
any subjects, comments or messages until you recover your
spam rating to above 60%.


Jul 31st 2007 11:39   

CAYA Radio   
I just ignore the stuff and delete it that I don't consider useful with my type of business. I think removing the "Spam" option is a good idea. This is for business, and if you want a personal network community not for business, there are plenty out there...
Jul 31st 2007 11:42   

Karen Weir  Local Internet Advertising Consultant
Of course ignorance is not going to save you if you are a "spammer". But let me assure of you of something. If you are using safelists, someone will eventually say that you are a spammer. Even though you probably are not. If you have posted an ad on a FFA site - You agreed to receiving email from the owner and possibly other members. You see where I am going with this? You could be accused of spam, and if the accuser is right regardless of whether or not he is wrong... well... you are a spammer. The consequences for spam are HUGE.

So, yes, I give people the benefit of the doubt. I think that the true "spammers" are a small group, and the people making mistakes make up the majority of the "spammers", and you could be one of them without knowing it. When I get an email with a list of email addresses, I cringe... I KNOW that person is ignorant. Should he be shut down, charged $10,000 fine? Not in my mind. I'll contact him if possible, and try to help him.

~ Karen ~
Jul 31st 2007 12:27   

Eric Smith   Online Professional
Karen,

Most people would know that FFA pages are not the ideal place to promote anyway, however, most FFA pages state you will get a conformation message - they say nothing about multiple emails, promotional emails and the like.

A conformation email is a simple - "Thanks for submitting your Ad"

What they don't say is - "Thanks for submitting your Ad, now that we have your email address we will bombard you with all types of opportunities you will probably never take up and we will not put an unsubscribe link in our emails because you gave us permission to email you when you posted your ad. And don't true to reply to unsubscribe becaus that will just subscribe you to another one of our lists..."

The fact of the matter is - If you didn't subscribe to a list and you receive UNWANTED email, you have the right to consider it spam.

APsense, however is different - We give people permission to contact us when we invite or accept their invitation.... that, i believe, is the problem here now. How can we call something SPAM if we have agreed to receive messages...

Maybe their needs to be a numbered system. If more than "xx" reports are made on 1 user then the spam score will be reduced. Not just for an individual complaint...
Jul 31st 2007 15:02   

Karen Weir  Local Internet Advertising Consultant
Eric, you said.... "Most people would know that FFA pages are not the ideal place to promote anyway,"... and reality is that MOST people know no such thing. In fact, many successful internet marketers use them. You are stating your opinions as facts, and that is where the problem lies.

There is no concensus on what constitutes spam. I'd be willing to bet that you have sent unsolicited emails based on your responses here - clearly you have posted on FFA sites or you wouldn't have an opinion on their value, or would you know what "most" FFA sites confirmation message states.

There is no right or wrong in these things - only opinions. And my opinion is that many good people, like Rusty Rose, have been accused of spam - sometimes they may have even been unwittingly guilty. I am saying that I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no need to damage anyone's reputation - even if they are knowingly guilty. In my opinion, I am satisfied to simply block the offender.

~ Karen ~
Jul 31st 2007 16:26   

Eric Smith   Online Professional
Yep, 1999 was a terrible year for me... I used what was put in front of me to use. FFA pages were the "Big Thing" back then.

It wasn't until i started visiting professional marketing forums and associating with people using other marketing methods that i learned the facts about FFA pages.

Of course if you own an FFA website and don't mind spam complaints etc, they are good for building lists. Newbies Love them.

I've been there, done that, and i now choose not to use them.... i would have no authority to comment on them if i hadn't used them.
Jul 31st 2007 17:02   

John Bassett   
To help recent readers and owning up to my limited knowledge. "What is FFA?" Somebody had to ask so it might as well be me.

JB in the UK Suffering Sunstroke from our one day summer. Hooray...
Jul 31st 2007 17:27   

Eric Smith   Online Professional
FFA pages are Free For All Links pages where you can add a link for free to a web page in return for accepting emails from the FFA page owner.

The links rarely stays on a page for longer than a few minutes as they have a roll on roll off system with only about 50 links on the page at a time.

They were originally created as PR increasing pages. One of the tools google uses to measure Page Rank (PR) is the number of incoming links to your website. Google got suspicious of these pages and began banning FFA's from their search results. They also started giving negative ratings to sites that were listed on these pages.

Many (I won't say most) Webmasters now prefer to use Link exchanges, Article Submissions, One way paid links, forum discussions and other SEO techniques...

Hope that helps answer your question...
Jul 31st 2007 17:58   

John Bassett   
Excellent Eric. That's what APsense should be used for, getting the answers and learning from those who know stuff. By the way, Eric has a business to promote too, but you need to find out what it is by clicking on his .jpeg image (Photo)

John in the UK

PS.... Is that advertising a bus/op by default? :-)
Jul 31st 2007 18:16   

Karen Weir  Local Internet Advertising Consultant
I hope you understand my point Eric. Some people do use FFA pages, and when they do, they agreed to receive emails from those members. Same goes for safelists. If you have ever purchased a list of "leads" from a lead broker, you could be guilty of spam.

It is very easy for a newbie, and even a not so newbie to make a mistake. Lots of people buy leads. Often those lead lists are email addresses harvested from FFA pages. So your complaint that FFA page owners "spam" may or may not be accurate. That is the point. We need to have compassion for each other and work together to make our online communities better places.

I am simply in favor of a community that supports and encourages its members. A place where those who are successful help those who are not. Again, a place where we lift each other up and don't have tools that assist in harming anyone.

~ Karen ~
Jul 31st 2007 18:25   

Eric Smith   Online Professional
I don't buy leads or use safelists either, i use targeted lead capture pages to create my own leads.

Been there - Done that - Bought the T Shirt....
Jul 31st 2007 20:05   

Beth Schmillen   
"I think we have gone a little too far with making everyone a Spam Cop. This kind of negativity may hurt more than it helps. What do you think?

Thanks

Valerie "

There may be an exodus of sorts by anyone who takes offense by the livley discussions taking place on the Apsense GROUP... I for one was merely shocked and awed... to use an awful phrase... and I've been told I chose a less than apropos way of phrasing those who would report Spam...

well, gosh. I report Spam. I delete posts. I am an administrator at most of the Groups I post at.... so... that makes me a Spam Cop at times.... but that was even before the system was instituted that rates everyone...

please everyone... let's get back to work????

Beth
Jul 31st 2007 20:18   

Jonathan Rudd   Marketing Consultant
I would like to put my 2 cents in about FFA (Free For All) sites and the issues of SPAM if I may. The fact is, FFA is outdated technology that is only useful to the FFA site owner. Your ad drops off so fast that no one gets to see it anyway. The "gurus" promote this and other useless techniques because it's a way to get you on their lists.

Although they SAY they use this, they really don't. The real secret to their success is not even revealed in their free reports, or even in what they sell you. They are NOT doing what they are telling YOU to do, not in the least. I could tell you the true secret of their success, but I might be accused of using this post as a slick way to advertise.

Even saying that might bring the accusation. The point I'm making is this. Network marketing and business building is a science. We've been blindly following and passing down the wrong teachings for so long that the science of marketing is all but forgotten; except by a few who laugh at our feeble attempts to learn these secrets.

They will gladly sell you their latest e-book or even GIVE it to you just to egt you on their list and mail you their back-end products. Heck, I may as well say it. That IS the secret! They portray themselves as experts in the field, sell you a product, then use YOUR money to advertise to more people. You are actually PAYING to be on their list!

It's an age-old technique that has been used to make millions for people like Yanik Silver, Shawn Casey, Mike Filsaime and many others. You can stick your head in the sand and say it isn't so, but you'll NEVER achieve the kind of success you're looking for using the archaic things your upline and companies are telling you to do.

jon
Aug 4th 2007 21:13   

Eric Smith   Online Professional
Well said Jonathon,

As has been said before - The money is in the List. The "Big Secret" of how to market is the "Vehicle" to get you on that list.

I'm not saying this is wrong, The subscriber does receive some good information, but the reality is one would be better of putting their money into quality list building tools and services.
Aug 4th 2007 22:44   

Karen Weir  Local Internet Advertising Consultant
I completely concur with you Jon. My point was that IF you do post to FFA pages and then crying SPAM, you agreed to receive those emails from the FFA site owner and his/her affiliates.

Where I would disagree with you is that FFA technology is outdated. The still do what they were always intended to do... build the owner's list. They were never an effective method of advertising.

What is becoming outdated fast is eMail. And FFA sites are probably a big reason for it. The early internet marketers used FFAs site most effectively to build their lists and promote their products and services. Back then, email got read.

Today we have the issue with ISPs blocking email, preventing legitimate email from getting through, and if it does get through it is still often unseen. Now, your inbox is so full that you couldn't possibly read them all. I get at least 2000 emails everyday. If some of them are legitimate, or responses to my ads, I easily miss them.

I further agree with your assertion that buying the "guru's secrets" is a complete waste of money. If they do reveal their secrets it is only because what they are revealing has served its purpose for them and is no longer valuable - now they make their millions selling their outdated secrets.

We need to move out of the "follower" mode, into the "leader" mode and develop our own creative marketing strategies.

Great post!

~ Karen ~
Aug 4th 2007 23:00   

Mike Hunt   
G`day,
oh yeah Jonathon Rudd, hit the nail firmly on the head there mate, is it coincedence 95% of people fail to notice what you`ve stated and 95% fail online? Nope, people want "the easy way to success" ... there is no easy way, there is no overnight success`s in this business and there certainly isn`t anyway your gonna make money by following what most "guru`s" tell you.

It`s shocking to see how many people fall for the BS that like you said Jonathon, has been turned into gospel truth from people blindly following bad advice and passing it on. What is more shocking is the amount of people that haven`t got their OWN website, promote OTHER PEOPLES products and think they`re building THEIR business ... only business and bank account your building is that of whoever is running that program.

Karen, I can`t believe you get 2000+ emails a day ... lol ... admitting you easily miss important stuff says it all, cut back on it hun ... WAY back ; ) Surely you spend half your day just deleting emails ... lol.

There are some true gurus of Internet Marketing to, but as you have to pay for access to the vital components of how to succeed online, most people aren`t even prepared to try ... you`ll never make it online if you want everything "free" .. simple as that ... you just have to know true value when you find it ... and PAY for it!

Christopher
Aug 5th 2007 00:14   

Rusty Rose   
How many of the gurus are really making money? Case in point, one well-known guru, a supposedly genius at building his downlines and building downlines for others fancies himself a cook and wanted to go to a contest they're having in Europe. He sent out a special mailing to his "downlines" that make him millions, asking them to join and help him get the $3,000 he needed to go to Europe for the cooking contest.

Even I could get $3,000 to go to Europe.

What happended to all the millions everyone, including himself, claimed he had. Someone is telling little fibs somewhere and I suspect that most of your gurus are not making millions like they claim.

Like Joyner, who sold all his secrets as he was retiring. So what is he doing back? Or was that just a desparate ruse to try and make money ?

Frankly, I doubt any of them are really making the kind of money they claim. I don't trust any of them!

And a good portion of my mail is spam from these gurus who sell your name to others. Get on one of their lists and you end up on 20 of them. It's easy enough to tell by sending in for their information under different names and email accounts.
Aug 5th 2007 00:28   

Karen Weir  Local Internet Advertising Consultant
Hey Christopher,

I am serious about the number of emails I get. What I attempt to do is keep a couple of addresses clean - meaning I don't use it to do any email marketing. The addresses I use to register for anything are the ones that gets the ridiculous amount of email, and truly I expect it. Once or twice a week I go in and scan subject lines, then delete them all at once. Takes about 3 or 4 minutes.

~ Karen ~
Aug 5th 2007 01:04   

John Bassett   
Hi Gang

Well it's been interesting to see how the subject matter has in a Chinese whisper sort of way gone from Spamming, (Incidentally "Monty Python" still makes me laugh out loud) to how we all hate the "Gurus". Listen. The fact about marketing is very very simple.

1. Get a product or service you feel you like well enough to talk to people about it.
2.Research the best and fastest way to promote it.
3. Be prepared for the long haul.
4. Ouch, put some money into your investment.
5. Teach this system with truthful honesty and tell people that you get nothing for nothing. Fact.
6. Follow the Golden Rule. "Do unto others..."
7. Believe in yourself & your ability and get to "flippin work."
8. Stop procrastinating.
9. Stop Whining.
10. Stop Blaming other people.

Need I Go On.

Sorry I'm too busy.

John In The UK.
Soapbox needs a refit. Catch you later...

Aug 5th 2007 04:00   

Jonathan Rudd   Marketing Consultant
Boy, did I open a bag of worms! I agree 100% with you Karen that FFA sites are useful in building lists for the owners of the site. When I say it's outdated technology, I'm referring to its use as an advertising source. I did say in my last post that it only serves to add you to someone's list when you post there.

Now, is it SPAM when the list owner contacts you? Yes and No. When these unknowing people post to these sites, they are trying to get the word out about THEIR opportunity. It's ok for the return link to the poster to be a blatant ad. All FFA sites warn you that you will get a message for posting from the owner.

However, for the owner to continually send them ads, that's SPAM in my opinion. I didn't agree for the site owner to keep on sending me HIS stuff. This is another reason why newbies fail. They get distracted by these hyped up ads and the promise of overnight wealth that they end up becoming a program hopper, going from one program to the next.

We need to educate the "newbie" to stop posting to FFAs so they can learn REAL techniques for marketing. Most FFA owners don't care about the people who post, they just want that lead to build their list. They'll even sell you a script (or give you one) that will post to FFA sites in bulk. That's not real marketing. Why do you think Google banned FFA sites and frown on people whose links are found there?
Aug 5th 2007 06:56